Another High School Shooting in the US

[blownvn]

Originally Posted by ea_weapon

Lucky, those Glocks are so evil with their sub-120mm barrel length.

Yep, I'm glad mine is perfectly safe 'cause it's got the Australian compliant 123mm barrel.

I read the first two pages of this thread and then stopped reading because it was making me angry all over again.

It's a bloody tragedy what happened over in the US but what the hell does it have to do without gun laws over here. We have some of the most restrictive laws around and some bloody stupid ones as well (like the fact that my Glock 17 is somehow less dangerous because the barrel is a couple mm longer).
It's not like we can just walk into a shop here in Australia and buy a gun and walk out. First we have strict licencing and long drawn out background checks and then we have the good old 28day waiting period for each firearm we wish to purchase and then we can have anything that was actually designed after 1900 because that would be far too dangerous.

Leave the American gun laws to the Americans who have to live with them and leave the Australian gun laws alone, us legitimate owners have been put through enough bullshit, and you guys - the Australian taxpayer - have been paying for it.

[[Tonko]]

Cant you people (Polyal, Flappist, eaweapon etc..) keep to the subject? Nothing you will say will change gun laws, we know your opinion. The fact is 32 people were murdered today, regardless of whether it was on the other side of the world or not, it is a tradgedy...
If you want to start a ****ing match on gun laws, start your own thread, this one has a purpose.
Neither of you will change the other opinion.

I feel sorry for the family and friends of this tragedy, in a school of 13,000 students, it has affected all of them.

[flappist]

Originally Posted by TonkoXR8

Cant you people (Polyal, Flappist, eaweapon etc..) keep to the subject? Nothing you will say will change gun laws, we know your opinion. The fact is 32 people were murdered today, regardless of whether it was on the other side of the world or not, it is a tradgedy...
If you want to start a ****ing match on gun laws, start your own thread, this one has a purpose.
Neither of you will change the other opinion.

I feel sorry for the family and friends of this tragedy, in a school of 13,000 students, it has affected all of them.

Yes, the subject here was that a former mental patient murdered 32 people in another country which has a different societal structure to ours.
This has given the zealots another chance to scream their dogmatic propaganda out loud again.
It has nothing to do with Australia. But this does not change their raving.

Read my posts again.

I have not at any time supported or derided the current weapons laws in Australia.

I have a very strong knowlege of the laws both here and in USA and am actually QUALIFIED in both. i.e. I have NFA RO and Inspector status in USA and am a qualified armourer as well as 14 years experience in firearms dealing in Australia as well as the designer of the fiream dealing and tracking software used in some states. The handgun used was a Glock 19. I am a certified Glock armourer and was actually personally trained by Robert Glock, son of Gaston the man who designed it.

These are my qualifications, what are yours?

I KNOW a lot more about these things that have happened over the years and I also know, as do many others, that the media tend to lie to make a story better.

I find it most amusing that the same people on here who are screaming "BAN GUNS it will save the world" then chastise Harold Scruby for his "BAN CARS it will save the world" stance. THERE IS NO DIFFERENCE IN THE MINDSET.

It you do not understand the big picture or you are just following a personal political agenda then you really should listen occaisionally, you might actually learn something.

These people are dead, this is a tragedy. But they are no more or less dead than the 30 who died in the Kempsey bus disaster or in the current nursing home or fiasco or the Garuda air crash or any other event that has happened in history. People die it is part of life.

Those who are using this tragedy to further their own agenda are the ones who are disrespecting the fallen and should be ashamed.

[[Tonko]]

Originally Posted by flappist

Yes, the subject here was that a former mental patient murdered 32 people in another country which has a different societal structure to ours.
This has given the zealots another chance to scream their dogmatic propaganda out loud again.
It has nothing to do with Australia. But this does not change their raving.

Read my posts again.

I have not at any time supported or derided the current weapons laws in Australia.

I have a very strong knowlege of the laws both here and in USA and am actually QUALIFIED in both. i.e. I have NFA RO and Inspector status in USA and am a qualified armourer as well as 14 years experience in firearms dealing in Australia as well as the designer of the fiream dealing and tracking software used in some states. The handgun used was a Glock 19. I am a certified Glock armourer and was actually personally trained by Robert Glock, son of Gaston the man who designed it.

These are my qualifications, what are yours?

I KNOW a lot more about these things that have happened over the years and I also know, as do many others, that the media tend to lie to make a story better.

I find it most amusing that the same people on here who are screaming "BAN GUNS it will save the world" then chastise Harold Scruby for his "BAN CARS it will save the world" stance. THERE IS NO DIFFERENCE IN THE MINDSET.

It you do not understand the big picture or you are just following a personal political agenda then you really should listen occaisionally, you might actually learn something.

These people are dead, this is a tragedy. But they are no more or less dead than the 30 who died in the Kempsey bus disaster or in the current nursing home or fiasco or the Garuda air crash or any other event that has happened in history. People die it is part of life.

Those who are using this tragedy to further their own agenda are the ones who are disrespecting the fallen and should be ashamed.

I am listening, the constant back-and-forth What if's, Outragous (sp?) assumptions and comparisons to completely different items of daily life, Guns and Cars, they could not be more different in their uses and purpose... The fact they are being compared is just stupid.
I am not pushing an agenda. I am more open minded than many others, mostly because i dont really care, it does not affect my daily life...
As for my firearm qualifications, Not as extensive as yours, not even close, Im just a recreational shooter and shoot the odd pest on the farm. I do not claim to be an expert on gun legislation, The laws were introduced when i was too young anyways...

[T3man]

Originally Posted by TonkoXR8

I am listening, the constant back-and-forth What if's, Outragous (sp?) assumptions and comparisons to completely different items of daily life, Guns and Cars, they could not be more different in their uses and purpose... The fact they are being compared is just stupid.
I am not pushing an agenda. I am more open minded than many others, mostly because i dont really care, it does not affect my daily life...
As for my firearm qualifications, Not as extensive as yours, not even close, Im just a recreational shooter and shoot the odd pest on the farm. I do not claim to be an expert on gun legislation, The laws were introduced when i was too young anyways...

If guns are so different from cars ... here's one for you then ... which kills more people each year? I don't care whether you take Australian statistics, American statistics or World statistics, just select one ...

[Falcon_Phill]

Originally Posted by T3man

I don't care whether you take Australian statistics, American statistics or World statistics, just select one ...

Ok. South Africa



Dont blame me, it was your question. Feel free to apologize to tonko, or bring up some other ridiculous question.

[[Tonko]]

Originally Posted by T3man

If guns are so different from cars ... here's one for you then ... which kills more people each year? I don't care whether you take Australian statistics, American statistics or World statistics, just select one ...

Are we talking deaths overall or excluding accidental?
How about the thread topic for example, He went out to kill as many peole as possible, Why take a gun instead of a car? Because They are so different. And serve different purposes...
(I am not saying a guns puropse is to be the tool every madman uses to get his twisted point across.)
Just a question to understand your logic:
If there is a car accident that kills 3 people, meanwhile a gunman across town murders 3 people, You dont see any difference?

[Fordman1]

Originally Posted by Falcon_Phill

Ok. South Africa

Dont blame me, it was your question. Feel free to apologize to tonko, or bring up some other ridiculous question.

Ha, ha ,ha !!!

Touche !

[Sourbastard]

wow. guns are used to kill people? Tell me it aint so mamma!

turn your hyeteria knobs down a few notches folks. Nothing can stop a dedicated motivated homicide. You can have stricter gun controls, ban guns entirely, write as much law as you want. Its pointless. A homicide is a serious crime, if you intend on performing it, would you seriously worry about performing another relatively minor crime by purchasing firearms on the black market? You can still buy almost any weapon you can dream of here in australia, the trade hasnt stopped, because there is still a demand, and likely there will ALWAYS be a demand.

You cant stop homicides with graphs and laws, unless you print them on Kevlar and wear them like a suit.

And please, dont confuse general deaths, with homicides, they are vastly different numbers, homicides showing heavily towards firearm related causes due to the fact that HUMANS ARE LAZY, even when we are angry enough to kill, we choose the easiest method available. Convenience isnt a concern because at the end of the day, most murderers are also fearful of losing at the encounter if they dont come prepared, hence why spoon related murders are on the decline(mores the pity). Although a mass murder of 32 people killed using nothing but a plastic spork would get my admiration.

[T3man]

Originally Posted by Falcon_Phill

Ok. South Africa



Dont blame me, it was your question. Feel free to apologize to tonko, or bring up some other ridiculous question.

Actually I thought the discussion was centered (or at least was steered) to a comparison between US and AUS. I didn't notice SA in there anywhere. And when I said "world" I meant "world" (which INCLUDES EVERY country), not just ANY ONE country in the world.

I was making a "silly" comparison because that is how I saw the argument has developed - stupid comparisons being made and argued for and against, all of which have no real bearing on the issue.

[Falcon_Phill]

So should I show you the other countries I found or what exactly are you asking?

[T3man]

Originally Posted by Falcon_Phill

So should I show you the other countries I found or what exactly are you asking?

You want me to come down to Moruya and box your ears young fella - now stop being cheeky.

Nah mate I meant what I said world figures - that is all statistics combined for all countries in the world, not just the US or AUS or even SA for that matter. The whole thing was a bit of a joke because that is how I saw the thread was developing - refer my last post above.

[flappist]

Originally Posted by Falcon_Phill

Ok. South Africa



Dont blame me, it was your question. Feel free to apologize to tonko, or bring up some other ridiculous question.

You sure you dont work in the governmant department that suggested banning lane changes in the tunnel will save lives?

So you pick a 3rd world country full of waring tribes? Why not Afganistan or Mozambique?

I know why you did not pick Switzerland. Everyone is armed and there are very few shootings. But that would not support you agenda would it?

You know Australia is one of the safest countries in the world for hippopotumus attacks (the most dangersous animal in africa). And almost all the hippopotimii in Australia are in cities with thousands of people.

Lies, damned lies and statistics, the preferred tools of the social engineers and wowers.......

[Falcon_Phill]

Originally Posted by flappist

You sure you dont work in the governmant department that suggested banning lane changes in the tunnel will save lives?

So you pick a 3rd world country full of waring tribes? Why not Afganistan or Mozambique?

I know why you did not pick Switzerland. Everyone is armed and there are very few shootings. But that would not support you agenda would it?

You know Australia is one of the safest countries in the world for hippopotumus attacks (the most dangersous animal in africa). And almost all the hippopotimii in Australia are in cities with thousands of people.

Lies, damned lies and statistics, the preferred tools of the social engineers and wowers.......

er no, i read his question and responded how he wanted someone to. Its not like i was sitting here for 2 days waiting to bring up statistics from south africa. Oh yes by the way i work for the government and am fully responsible for not being able to change lanes in the tunnel, very relevant.

[flappist]

Originally Posted by Falcon_Phill

er no, i read his question and responded how he wanted someone to. Its not like i was sitting here for 2 days waiting to bring up statistics from south africa. Oh yes by the way i work for the government and am fully responsible for not being able to change lanes in the tunnel, very relevant.

If you do not see the relevance of that sort of stupid misuse of statistics to support an arguement then ask your teacher or parents to explain it to you.

It might make it more relevant if you also ask them to explain the use of similes to assist in displaying a concept to those who seem to have difficulty in actually understanding a subject.

Again, antigun zealots bending and beating up a tragedy to further their dogmatic jihad. Leave these poor people and their families alone.....

[FPV8U]

Not really the topic to be bringing up statistics i think, another terrible tragedy in the US more dead thanks to another depressed loser.

As much as it pains me to say it, with the thousands of "Im Depressed Look at me" EMO's walking our streets it's only a matter of time untill something similar happens over here, it's an attention seeking thing nothing more, nothing less.

So sad that 30+ Innocents have to pay the ultimate price for essentially doing nothing wrong, having visited a few mates at Collage in Melbourne this week and feeling what the atmosphere is like in those places i don't understand how people can feel like this, let alone punish those around them.

R.I.P to those who have gone to better places and much sympathy for their family and friends.

[dansedgli]

Originally Posted by TonkoXR8

Are we talking deaths overall or excluding accidental?

Does it matter? Do people who die in accidents somehow come back to life?

[Falcon_Phill]

Originally Posted by flappist

If you do not see the relevance of that sort of stupid misuse of statistics to support an arguement then ask your teacher or parents to explain it to you.

It might make it more relevant if you also ask them to explain the use of similes to assist in displaying a concept to those who seem to have difficulty in actually understanding a subject.

Again, antigun zealots bending and beating up a tragedy to further their dogmatic jihad. Leave these poor people and their families alone.....

Yeh use the families to try and get your point accross, he asked a question and i answered it end of story. Stop trying to make something from nothing.

[[Tonko]]

Originally Posted by ea_weapon

Does it matter? Do people who die in accidents somehow come back to life?

It does matter, because there are more people who die accidently in cars than accidently get shot.
Read the whole thing before opening your trap.

[T_Terror]

Originally Posted by FPV8U

Not really the topic to be bringing up statistics i think, another terrible tragedy in the US more dead thanks to another depressed loser.

As much as it pains me to say it, with the thousands of "Im Depressed Look at me" EMO's walking our streets it's only a matter of time untill something similar happens over here, it's an attention seeking thing nothing more, nothing less.

So sad that 30+ Innocents have to pay the ultimate price for essentially doing nothing wrong, having visited a few mates at Collage in Melbourne this week and feeling what the atmosphere is like in those places i don't understand how people can feel like this, let alone punish those around them.

R.I.P to those who have gone to better places and much sympathy for their family and friends.

Yeah i remember when i was in school there was a kid EXACTLY like the VT shooter, pale, a loner, all emo'ed up. Even the nerds teased him.

Then one day someone was talking about how he could get his dads gun, later he kid approached that person and asked if he could "borrow" his gun.

Later the teachers found notes about shooting everyone from the school belltower!

[Night Runner]

Very sad indeed. While some will argue "guns don't kill people, people kill people" which at the end of the day is correct, fact of the matter is guns are far too easy to buy in the US. In Virginia where this took place no background checks are needed to purchase a gun. The Americans are too proud of their rights to bear arms and IMO are too full of themselves and the whole "freedom" routine. I always get the feeling they think that the USA is the only place on this blue and green orb that is "free". Something needs to be done about their gun laws and quick. It's just as easy to buy guns as it is drugs from a local crook down at the corner making a living off the lifeless and scum.


My 0.02c

[Interceptor]

NZTS50, hate to break it to ya mate, but gun laws only make it harder for people to legally buy guns..... even in Australia, over 10 years after our gun laws were tightened, i can go out and buy a gun in less time than it takes me to go and buy a big mac......

only difference between now and 15 years ago, is that if i bought a gun in that way now, i'd be a criminal

[Night Runner]

I see your point so I guess what I should be saying is they need to act on their gun control laws. It's already past the point of no return years ago IMO. So many guns in the US now that they will forever be in houses, shops and the worst of all, in the wrong hands no matter what they do.


Cheers.

[dansedgli]

Originally Posted by TonkoXR8

It does matter, because there are more people who die accidently in cars than accidently get shot.
Read the whole thing before opening your trap.

So? Both can be avoided, what's your point? A person who dies in an accident is no less dead than a person who is murdered.

No doubt if cars that exceed the speed limit and did the quarter mile quicker than 30 seconds were totally removed from society there would be a lot less speed related deaths.

There is no difference to the gun debate. Yes they are for different purposes. Yes a lot of firearm deaths are intentional. Banning such cars would save a lot more lives then somehow waving a magic wand and removing all firearms, both legal and illegal. Yet everyone here would be up and down like a hooker's pants if it were proposed. Why? No one needs these cars.

Originally Posted by [ NZTS50 ]

In Virginia where this took place no background checks are needed to purchase a gun.

A background check is required to purchase a firearm from any dealer in the US. The only exception is buying one through a private sale. The VT shooter passed a background check on accound of a stupid technicality.

The Americans are too proud of their rights to bear arms and IMO are too full of themselves and the whole "freedom" routine.

And no doubt Australian's would defend their "freedom" a hell of a lot more if they had spilt blood to gain it.

I always get the feeling they think that the USA is the only place on this blue and green orb that is "free".

And to a lot of them it is. They feel safe in the knowing their right to bear arms protects them from a corrupt government. Laugh if you want, it happened in Germany 70 years ago. Not everyone in the world has the same values. Not everyone has been brought up in the same culture with the same history. America's history prior to the 20th century was very different to our's and it shows in their culture.

Something needs to be done about their gun laws and quick. It's just as easy to buy guns as it is drugs from a local crook down at the corner making a living off the lifeless and scum.

These drugs are illegal already, so what does that say about banning them?

[Interceptor]

Originally Posted by ea_weapon

The VT shooter passed a background check on accound of a stupid technicality.

what was the technicality?

Originally Posted by ea_weapon

And no doubt Australian's would defend their "freedom" a hell of a lot more if they had spilt blood to gain it.

2 points
1: we may not have spilt much blood to gain our freedom and independance, but Australia has spilt more than enough to keep it
2: problem with #1 is that there are way too many people in this country who have no clue or no respect for the people and actions that have kept Australia free and independant

Originally Posted by ea_weapon

These drugs are illegal already, so what does that say about banning them?

quite true.....

[Night Runner]

Originally Posted by ea_weapon

And no doubt Australian's would defend their "freedom" a hell of a lot more if they had spilt blood to gain it.

And to a lot of them it is. They feel safe in the knowing their right to bear arms protects them from a corrupt government. Laugh if you want, it happened in Germany 70 years ago. Not everyone in the world has the same values. Not everyone has been brought up in the same culture with the same history. America's history prior to the 20th century was very different to our's and it shows in their culture.



These drugs are illegal already, so what does that say about banning them?

I am not sure, I'm not Aussie. I'm from NZ where violence with guns is almost not existent. I'm just glad I don't live in a community where everyone is so quick to run to their gun closet and start shooting up a storm. We are as free as America, perhaps more so. 1 country with one set of laws unlike the State to State changes in the US and A. One State you could be 100% legal the next State you could be breaking several laws. Nice.

History matters but no matter how you gain your country or the history behind it, freedom is freedom. Just because one country went to war for it or one country found it, freedom is freedom.

Anyhow, this is going off subject and quickly turning "country vs country" which will get no one anywhere. We all have our views and I respect everyones opinions. At the end of the day 32 people died and many injured.

Cheers.