Move over Porsche and Ferrari, here come the supercars disguised as sedans.

[johnydep]

Interesting article; http://www.drive.com.au/editorial/article.aspx?id=10173

To the untrained eye, they are relatively discreet. Subtle bulges, vents, big brakes, wide tyres and a low-slung stance are some of the give-aways. But just in case these clues aren't enough, the German cars have four massive exhaust pipes, which are about as subtle as diamond-encrusted cuff links.

While there is a limit to how fast you can travel on public roads, there's no limit to how quickly you can reach the limit. All three of these cars can reach 100kmh in 5 seconds or less. And they go about it different ways.

Mercedes uses supercharging, BMW uses extra cylinders (it's the world's first V10-powered sedan), whereas Holden's performance car division uses simple cubic capacity to get its flagship moving. With a 6.0-litre V8, it's the biggest engine here.

Purists may tut-tut at the inclusion of the humble, homegrown Holden in such esteemed company but the reality is that the HSV Senator - in performance stakes at least - has every right to rub shoulders with the German thoroughbreds. In fact, in our test, the Senator was quicker than the BMW M5 in a straight line in everyday driving.
.............

[Steffo]

Yes, saw that article a while ago. To even put the Senator up with the BMW and Merc is a joke...

[NAK302]

Originally Posted by Steffo

Yes, saw that article a while ago. To even put the Senator up with the BMW and Merc is a joke...

i didn't read the article but i'm surprised with this comment. what's wrong with comparing a nice Aussie car with the best European ones?

[johnydep]

Originally Posted by nak351

i didn't read the article but i'm surprised with this comment. what's wrong with comparing a nice Aussie car with the best European ones?

I agree, some people just think that Aussie cars don't have anything to offer.

To save you reaching for the calculator, we've done the sums already. You can have three Senators and some loose change for the same price as a BMW M5 - or you could have three Senators and enough money left over for a Holden Commodore Executive for the same price as a Mercedes CLS 55.

On price, you could say this is not a fair fight. But based on performance the Senator has every right to be considered in this company. The suburban hero is more than capable of taking care of itself in a contest against the suits from the big end of town.

Look at the numbers: 6.0-litre V8 with 297kW of power and 530Nm of torque - more torque than the BMW. The result: a claimed and easily repeatable 0-100kmh time of 5.0 seconds. It's the quickest Australian-made sedan ever built.

Like a lot of things in our backyard, we tend to take homegrown performance cars for granted. It's worth noting that, for a brief period a few years ago, HSV held the mantle of the world's fastest sedan - until Mercedes discovered supercharging. Powered by the same high-output V8 fitted to another performance icon, the Corvette, the Senator is capable of reaching 273kmh if it were ever to be driven on a speed-unlimited autobahn. (The German pair would probably exceed this, if they weren't electronically limited to 250kmh.)

[XplosiveR6]

Originally Posted by Steffo

Yes, saw that article a while ago. To even put the Senator up with the BMW and Merc is a joke...

how bout you go and drive a senator then drive and M5 or E55, the BMW and Merc are most certainly better, but are they worth an extra $180,000 odd thousand for? I dont think so! that money could be better spend on the house

[Steffo]

Originally Posted by EF_Dave

how bout you go and drive a senator then drive and M5 or E55, the BMW and Merc are most certainly better, but are they worth an extra $180,000 odd thousand for? I dont think so! that money could be better spend on the house

People who can afford an M5 and E55 rarely look at the HSV option. And from a performance standpoint, it is lightyears behind the M5 and E55. That article uses HSV claimed figues (5.0 sec 0-100km/h for the Senator.. total crock, it'll never hit that).

[nang3]

Originally Posted by EF_Dave

how bout you go and drive a senator then drive and M5 or E55, the BMW and Merc are most certainly better, but are they worth an extra $180,000 odd thousand for? I dont think so! that money could be better spend on the house

yeh but the people buying this sort of car have a bullsh!t amount of disposable income and wouldnt even think twice about paying that sort of dollars for a car.. and their is a lot better quality in a merc than a HSV, maybe not $180k worht but its there..

my old man has a CLK 200 cabriolet which is pretty entry level on the merc side of things, but still cost about $120K or something, stepping into his car after my car (350z track) really highlights the build quality of the mercs.. Ive seen a CL 55 AMG and SL 55 AMG in the showroom and they are just the ultimate cars.. unbe-f'n-lievable... i would sell my house for one and live in it using the winscreen washer as a shower these cars are that sexy mwahahahaha

[Casper]

Originally Posted by Steffo

People who can afford an M5 and E55 rarely look at the HSV option. And from a performance standpoint, it is lightyears behind the M5 and E55. That article uses HSV claimed figues (5.0 sec 0-100km/h for the Senator.. total crock, it'll never hit that).

And you would know this after driving how many of them?

[Steffo]

Originally Posted by Casper

And you would know this after driving how many of them?

I've driven an E55. No new M5 or VZ Senator though.

[Casper]

Originally Posted by Steffo

I've driven an E55. No new M5 or VZ Senator though.

I've also driven an E55 and even a few S classes... whoopy. Not what I asked.

Tell us all why you think that the HSV figures stated in the article are crap?

That article uses HSV claimed figues (5.0 sec 0-100km/h for the Senator.. total crock, it'll never hit that).

Have you driven one? Have you seen one at the drag strip? Has one of your uncles got one?

Steffo, your the king of "magazine quoted figures" and yet, when one of these figures suddenly disagrees with your opinion, you junk it without any explination or reason.

And you wonder why people rate your opinions as the ramblings of a wannabe? Back it up... or shut up.

[clampy]

far out thats one long hsv advert... only read the m5 bit coz i love them cars and all Drive do is bag it.

edit... ok read the hsv bit and i stand by my coment.. with stuff like "all it needs is better brakes/transmission/suspension/tyres" and it'l compete with the germans.. well thats like saying that a corolla with a v8 would be fast. wow thats amazing.. a corolla is so good, that if it were an f1 car, it would be as fast as an f1 car. wow!

no mention of quality, just the chrome bits on teh senator making it look a million bucks. i'l bet 50 bucks the test driver was wearing a red cap.

[Steffo]

Originally Posted by Casper

I've also driven an E55 and even a few S classes... whoopy. Not what I asked.

Tell us all why you think that the HSV figures stated in the article are crap?

Have you driven one? Have you seen one at the drag strip? Has one of your uncles got one?

Steffo, your the king of "magazine quoted figures" and yet, when one of these figures suddenly disagrees with your opinion, you junk it without any explination or reason.

And you wonder why people rate your opinions as the ramblings of a wannabe? Back it up... or shut up.

Right, king of magazine quoted figures. I'd quote them but then people seem to frown on that too. Does anyone ever reproduce HSV claimed acceleration times with any of their cars?

That article uses a manufacturer's claim for the Senator, the 5.0 sec 0-100km/h. And even that's wrong, HSV's own site claims 5.1 0-100 and 13.3 1/4 mile.

[Casper]

Originally Posted by Steffo

Right, king of magazine quoted figures. .................................................. .................That article uses a manufacturer's claim for the Senator, the 5.0 sec 0-100km/h. And even that's wrong, HSV's own site claims 5.1 0-100 and 13.3 1/4 mile.

I rest my case.

And not a single thing yet to back up your claim it wouldnt do it. I personally hove no idea if it would or not.. I have no way to verify the figures nor any experiance with the car itself. Do you?

[MethodX]

At least it shows the Aussie makers are improving.

Long way to go to match the Mercedes and BMW but on the way

[MITCHAY]

I reckon the Senator definately looks better than the M5. But i reckon the Merc looks nicer than the HSV.

[johnydep]

Originally Posted by Steffo

Right, king of magazine quoted figures. I'd quote them but then people seem to frown on that too. Does anyone ever reproduce HSV claimed acceleration times with any of their cars?

That article uses a manufacturer's claim for the Senator, the 5.0 sec 0-100km/h. And even that's wrong, HSV's own site claims 5.1 0-100 and 13.3 1/4 mile.

The article uses manufacturer's claim for all three vehicles tested.

Here is another figure from a Wheels test, now remember that times all vary between drivers, weather conditions, road, tyres, etc; http://farmhub.com.au/portal/alias__...opDefault.aspx

Talk is cheap, performance is king, and in Australian pub racing nothing talks as loud as a sub-14 second quarter mile. CarPoint has performance tested HSV's ClubSport against the clock for Wheels magazine, but we're unable to release our figures until the next issue of Wheels hits the stands late October. (Time's up, and the Clubbie did a 13.5 second quarter mile, and a 5.3 second 0-100km/h - ed.)

[all4ford]

I think its great that people wish to compare aussie engineering with the big european prestige car makers. But you really do need to be realistic in what you're saying. No one who is interested in buying a BMW or MERC, would go to their local HSV dealership to check out the offerings. Realistically you're not paying the excessive price tag for a car that can outperform anything else on the road, you're paying the excessive price tag for the name BMW or MERCEDES BENZ.

It really starts to annoy me when people say that they'd rather save a few $100 000 and buy an HSV because it performs equally as good as the european cars. If buying a car came down to nothing more then performance, no one would buy an HSV or an FPV or any NEW car for that matter. As you could spend $20 000-$30 000 on any car, and have yourself a car that would outperform pretty much anything you would ever come across on the street. Now tell me who wants to save themselves $30 000 and spend $20 000 on an older model ford such as an XF/EA etc and have one of the quickest cars on the forum, or would you rather have the new XR8.

From personal experience, I drive a car which has a good go against most later model cars, but I would happily trade UP to a new XR8/XR6T any day of the week. My point being that if you could afford a MERC or BMW, most people would happily trade UP from your Ford/Holden/FPV/HSV, in a heartbeat. My 2 Cents.

[paul7v7]

Australian cars have so much more before they even compete with the German beasts. The speed, yeah not important (although those german cars can accelerate quick, weight 2 tonnes and have less power than our cars, go figure). Anyways sure we have power, they have sophistication, style, class, innovation. But then that is what you pay for. Our cars are not there to do that, the HSV is a luxury muscle car. Well this is my opinion anyway.

[Mike Gayner]

Am I alone here? I would much rather own a really nice, brand-spanking-new GT-P or Senator than any Merc or BMW? Seriously, I just much prefer the look, style, sound and image of modern Aussie muscle to the (admittedly super-quick) European yawn-boxes. I say good on ya Australia for producing some of the best cars to ever see the light of day.

[nang3]

nah i would definitely prefer a SL/CLS/CL 55 AMG or M5 to a senator or GTP !!!!

given the choice though between the euro car OR a GTP and a cheque for the difference in retail, then i'd take the FPV

[ltd]

This article just proves my point that the media is mainly biased toward Holden, even to the point of having holden ads on their website.

Seriously, a BMW, Merc and an HSV?
That's like those comparisons they do at formula 1 tracks between a 3 series, 7 series and then the Williams F1 car. I know it sounds horrible but I would pan them if they did it with ford too.
Put simply, I can build you a car for $20000 that would blow away the BMW and the Merc, but it would not be all that controllable, stable or safe at high speeds. HSV's answer is similar to this in the sense that there is no adaptive suspension, no active safety devices and no stiffening of the chassis. The build quality is suspect, the balance of the car has a bias toward the front and to be perfectly honest, I would be scared stiff to be in an HSV at 160km/h, let alone 273km/h. HSV or FPV will simply not be as manoeverable as BMW or Merc at high speed, and is probably about 100 more times likely to crash. Crash at speed in a E55 or M5, you got a real good chance. Crash at speed in an HSV; well the last thing that's gonna go through your mind is your ***.

I've worked with a mate who has an HSV maloo ute with an out of hours Pratt and Whitney PT6A attached to it, rated at 1150SHP. Has something like 1600nm of torque as well. He wants to race it, nobody will touch it. Everyone who looks at it and hears it start says it's a deathtrap. It would absolutely eat the E55 or M5 in a straight line, and would make HSV look like a SMART car, but that still doesn't make it anywhere near the league of the big Europeans.

There are reasons why people pay so much for the European Marquees, something along the lines of safety, security, balance, poise, quality, resale value, exclusivety, prestige, comfort etc. HSV versus the top Europeans? Purrlease.

[nang3]

^^^^ exactly...

[Polyal]

hmm...comparing a Senator to an M5 really isn't as crazy as you think..I had a good blast in a VZ Clubsport (Im 99.9% sure its the same drivetrain) and this thing FLEW.

I have no doubt that in the right hands a LS2 will hit 5 seconds. Until you have driven one dont knock it!

[johnydep]

Why do some guys have to start the "biased towards holden" bull s**t.

The review is about how the local 'little guy' can keep up with the big honcho's and maybe even dish a bit out to them.

Of course there is differences, but it would be fun to see all three at the drags, don't you think.
And wouldn't it be fun to buy the local product & spend another 30 thou on it.

[needturbo6]

i dont think the hsv (or gt for that matter...) is comparable to the others in anything but acceleration/speed. The german cars have got it all over it in every other department.....

[16wantsI6]

lol i didnt even know they had 7 speeds in cars

[Steffo]

One important factor to consider when comparing them in speed is that the German cars are engineered to regularly be driven at 180-200km/h+ speeds (read: Autobahn), whereas the HSV is engineered for Australia, ie: 110km/h absolute max. The structural integrity and high speed stability of the other two is light years ahead of anything made here, and you don't have to be a rocket scientist to figure that out, its just part of the reason they're $220,000, not $80,000.

Spending $30,000 modifying the HSV won't bring it to the same level as the other two. Sure, you could make it spank them in a straight line, but methinks the engineers at M and AMG tend to make vehicles quite universally capable, as opposed to being simple drag rockets. It'd take ALOT of money put into a local product to be brought on par with those two.

Originally Posted by Steffo

One important factor to consider when comparing them in speed is that the German cars are engineered to regularly be driven at 180-200km/h+ speeds (read: Autobahn), whereas the HSV is engineered for Australia, ie: 110km/h absolute max. The structural integrity and high speed stability of the other two is light years ahead of anything made here, and you don't have to be a rocket scientist to figure that out, its just part of the reason they're $220,000, not $80,000.

Spending $30,000 modifying the HSV won't bring it to the same level as the other two. Sure, you could make it spank them in a straight line, but methinks the engineers at M and AMG tend to make vehicles quite universally capable, as opposed to being simple drag rockets. It'd take ALOT of money put into a local product to be brought on par with those two.

I don't think it would cost much compared to the price of these to make a falcon go around the nurburgring faster, with the after market 6.0L alloy block you can get for the 5.4 it wouldn't be that hard to make 500hp+ and you would just need some better brakes, suspension and aerodynamic aids.

[Steffo]

Originally Posted by lizardmech

I don't think it would cost much compared to the price of these to make a falcon go around the nurburgring faster, with the after market 6.0L alloy block you can get for the 5.4 it wouldn't be that hard to make 500hp+ and you would just need some better brakes, suspension and aerodynamic aids.

I wasn't specifically talking about on-track performance....

As a whole, the entire package is engineered for a lesser overall application.

[Des]

I mostly agree with you Steffo. Yes you could make a $80,000 car go $200,000 fast, but you wouldn't have the depth of engineering that the more expensive car would. A perfect example is the Evo, here's a $25,000 car costing $70,000 and going $100,000 fast. This is what happens when you make $45,000 worth of drive train, but the interior is still only designed for a $25,000 application.
Apply that to the Falcon (in round figures):
XT = $30,000
Add $40,000 drivetrian = GT
Add $70,000 drivetrain = possible GT-HO
Fairlane Ghia + $70,000 drivetrain = E55/ M5 competitor?

Before you all slap me, yes I've made some generalism's (is that a word), but the basic rules still apply.
Later, Brad....