I heard a little rumour today - Page 2

Joe5619 · 16-12-2009, 11:55 PM

From this article
http://www.goauto.com.au/mellor/mell...25768C00119D55

"Meantime, direct liquid injection (LPI) continues to be on track for the Falcon “in the latter half of 2010”, said Mr Burela."

opto · 17-12-2009, 12:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Laser '81

Yeah, I know. I heard a rumor that Ford are developing a new Falcon hardtop with a supercharged V8. I won't hold my breath.

This ones the best rumour

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OzJavelin · 17-12-2009, 09:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joe5619

From this article
http://www.goauto.com.au/mellor/mell...25768C00119D55

"Meantime, direct liquid injection (LPI) continues to be on track for the Falcon “in the latter half of 2010”, said Mr Burela."

Cool .. I'll pickup my EGas XR6 end of this year, let Ford iron out the bugs and get service staff used to fixing it, then buy a direct-injected version in three years

Brazen · 17-12-2009, 10:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hally

Actually the first small car in Australia with a factory LPG option was a Datsun 200B in the late 70's.

Cheers, interesting. A small car on LPG must cost peanuts to get around in.

tommyd · 17-12-2009, 12:34 PM

This 'rumour' is absolute garbage. Every program encounters problems along the way, that's what the definition of 'engineering' is - solving technical problems. The LPI program is alive and well.

WOTDAH · 17-12-2009, 04:26 PM

Little more to the rumour, apparently the engine does not pass emissions testing and the changes needed to get it to pass affects the reliability of engine.

Smoke Pursuit · 17-12-2009, 04:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brute6

If the figure that they have currently is 215kW.........What would you say.........???????? :voldar02:
They want to detune it, to bring the fuel consuption back, and performance/power back in line with petrol version.....

So how are the LED lamps / Xexons coming alone for FG2??

Lol!

Road_Warrior · 17-12-2009, 05:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WOTDAH

Little more to the rumour, apparently the engine does not pass emissions testing and the changes needed to get it to pass affects the reliability of engine.

I see

So this seems to be a calibration/mixing issue then.

Seems fairly late in the piece to be finding out this sort of thing now though??

Dr Smith · 17-12-2009, 06:00 PM

So how would this effect this agreement with Orbital:
http://www.orbeng.com.au/orbital/abo...ews/070509.pdf

whiskieboy · 17-12-2009, 08:50 PM

I'm not taking sides on the "rumour" but we built another handful of LI's this week for the boffins to play with.(yes I work in the engine plant)

FGX-351 · 18-12-2009, 01:31 AM

Sucks if the rumours are true but from past threads I have no reason not to believe WOTDAH.

King Nothing · 18-12-2009, 02:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WOTDAH

Little more to the rumour, apparently the engine does not pass emissions testing and the changes needed to get it to pass affects the reliability of engine.

Strange. Not that I doubt you, but I understand that LPG is better for emissions. That's why some hi-po cars run straight gas, to pass emissions without spending a bucket.

**Bluehoon** · 18-12-2009, 02:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by King Nothing

Strange. Not that I doubt you, but I understand that LPG is better for emissions. That's why some hi-po cars run straight gas, to pass emissions without spending a bucket.

Yes ano no. I belive Nox is an issue with gas emissions on later models and this could be the problem here too...

Co and the normal emissions are quite easily done on lpg, however nox is a challenge. perhaps one of the lps sponsors can shed some light and their thoughts?

Cheers

XR Martin · 18-12-2009, 03:01 PM

Some new diesels are using Urea injection to the exhaust to drop NOx emissions, adds $120 to the servicing cost every 20k kms as it has to be refilled. (on CX7s)

Jason[98.EL] · 18-12-2009, 11:41 PM

just had a chat with my friend on the inside and he hinted that the issue is not due to reliability or the likes but

it is more the fact that the manifold is nearly freezing they are working on the spacing of the injectors from the manifold

he also mentioned that the reason it is being kept under wraps so heavily is ford don't want to much known as it will hold people back from getting new cars as this new system is kick a$$ and they will loose sales in the interim till they get it right for release

naddis01 · 19-12-2009, 12:05 AM

Well this thread is really keeping it under wraps isn't it...

robertjp · 19-12-2009, 08:36 AM

Wasn't this one of the problems in the "original" LPi system where the injectors were freezing. Maybe they'll have to install a secondary heating system to keep the temperatures higher.

mcnews · 19-12-2009, 10:17 AM

Like the old de-icing circuits on carburettors. Motorcycle had regular problems with carbs freezing up in cold climates, thus a coolant circuit was integrated across the fuel bowls.

Gobes32 · 19-12-2009, 06:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jason[98.EL]

just had a chat with my friend on the inside and he hinted that the issue is not due to reliability or the likes but

it is more the fact that the manifold is nearly freezing they are working on the spacing of the injectors from the manifold

he also mentioned that the reason it is being kept under wraps so heavily is ford don't want to much known as it will hold people back from getting new cars as this new system is kick a$$ and they will loose sales in the interim till they get it right for release

Will the LI I6 have a plastic manifold?

gtfpv · 19-12-2009, 06:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gobes32

Will the LI I6 have a plastic manifold?

CRICKEY I HOPE NOT . I'VE BLOWN A FEW AIRBOXES AND MUFFLERS IN MY TIME WITH na gas . I'D HATE TO BLOW UP A MANIFOLD AS WELL.

cosmo20btt · 19-12-2009, 07:14 PM

This should never happen as the fuel is injected straight into the combustion chamber while the valve is closed.

ratter · 19-12-2009, 07:14 PM

It will not backfire like the old systems

cosmo20btt · 19-12-2009, 07:42 PM

No the old system released the gas in front of the throttle body, so what used to happen on start up the computer would advance the timing as it would crank to make an easier start, so the inlet valve would be slightly open and a spark would come up the intake and ignite the gas at the mixer leaving you with the job of picking plastic out of you left headlight. The old saying of do not dribble fuel down the carbie to start it is basically the same thing, as that is when it is most likely to backfire up the intake.

Bossxr8 · 20-12-2009, 01:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gobes32

Will the LI I6 have a plastic manifold?

Sure does. Suprised me as I thought the plastic would go brittle over time due to the cold.

I think they are actually a glass fibre reinforced plastic though, which may help, and also because its injected basically straight into the intake ports it doesn't affect much of the manifold bar the manifold mounting face area that bolts to the head.

Early E Gas BA motors had reliability problems, further R&D resulted in stronger conrods to stop them bending if the engine backfired, which also added another bonus by being able to use the stronger rod in the future XRT and F6.

Further R&D will fix any potential problems the LI engines may have, it just takes a bit of time. Ford also have orbital helping with the R&D. Highly unlikely it will be a big enough problem to cancel it.

blownba · 20-12-2009, 04:52 AM

The misinformation and poor guesses in this thread are unreal.

But then again some of them hold some truths.

I hope its not true but I know they have some MASSIVE hurdles to overcome with the Vialle system. Their injection timing is not as good as some other systems so the injection will actually encroach into the period when the inlet valve is actually closed.
That's one thing I know the system has a problem with. It may well be to a detriment of emissions. I don't know.
And it may well be a real issue that their manifolds are freezing due to the configuration of their liquid injectors in the manifold. Again not an issue on other systems.
i don't know I am clutching at straws here. But I do know they have some massive hurdles and I did say VERY early on in the piece that if Ford have this system ready by mid next year I will bear my bum in Burke street.

It is a real shame though. Liquid injection on a OEM Aussie built car would be a real boost for LPG credibility as a whole. But if it doesn't run right it could be disastrous

And its is not DIRECT injection LI. It is port injected.

There is only one company that has a true DIRECT injection LPG system that does not shut of the petrol injectors. And that certainly has nothing to do with this thread.

cosmo20btt · 20-12-2009, 10:41 AM

I honestly thought that if they were doing true Li the it would be directed straight into the chamber not into the port, but then I suppose this would lead to implications on recasting of the head & then Ford would also do direct petrol as well, so pays not to assume.

Bossxr8 · 20-12-2009, 12:55 PM

It is true Liquid injection, the LPG is injected. If it was direct injection it would be called LDI, as in Liquid Direct Injection.

ChemicalHorizon · 20-12-2009, 03:55 PM

My thoughts, the lpg engine is producing too much NO and similar compounds. Fixing it, nfi.

Watto_Cobra · 20-12-2009, 05:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bossxr8

Sure does. Suprised me as I thought the plastic would go brittle over time due to the cold.

I think they are actually a glass fibre reinforced plastic though, which may help, and also because its injected basically straight into the intake ports it doesn't affect much of the manifold bar the manifold mounting face area that bolts to the head.

Early E Gas BA motors had reliability problems, further R&D resulted in stronger conrods to stop them bending if the engine backfired, which also added another bonus by being able to use the stronger rod in the future XRT and F6.

Further R&D will fix any potential problems the LI engines may have, it just takes a bit of time. Ford also have orbital helping with the R&D. Highly unlikely it will be a big enough problem to cancel it.

When FG launched, I was very impressed with the new manifold for NA I6. It is "composite" (more than one material bonded together) and I also think it's "glass fibre reinforced plastic". 8kg weight saving in the manifold and 22kg in the alloy front suspension. That's what we need to see.

I'd think heat soak from the engine once warmed would negate bits freezing up, but yeah, that first couple of minutes while the engine is cold

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