Holden looks set to secure a billion dollar export program

[Ghiadude]

Yes AFailM has been most errrrrr succesful !!

[SSD-85]

Originally Posted by Swordsman88

Yes, they do, and NO ONE calls them on it. Not even supposed Ford fans on here....

I talked about the hybrid case in my earlier post. Hell, everything they have brought here (including most of them that failed) has been delayed by years if not more.Presumably they spin these stories to get good public perceptoin of their 'advanced design' and get their name out there. If i had a buck for every time i've been told by a Holden fanboy '....holden have this coming', 'holden are going to destroy ford with this new.....'. Come on! What a load. Not only does the product often never enventuate (and then said fanboy denies ever saying it would) but when it does its so behind the times it can't beat what the market already has. AFM took years to turn up, and then didn't work. SIDI (esp the 3.6 version) took years longer than the caddy that already had it, and still doesn't work all that well anyway. Hybrid commodore no time soon, the 'diesel commodore' no time soon, the E85 'pushed back possibly' from this year to next. Cruze delayed it goes on and on.

GFC may have made things worse but it not like holden has anyone but itself to blame on most of these cases....

This is a great post swordsman. I have now noticed this too and youre right. Kind of leaves you gobsmacked. Theyd rather blow their handouts on making models no one ends up buying (Viva=Epica=Cruze=???), or on cars to fill up pages of wheels magazine that only a select few would purchase. Didnt GM take a very similiar path to this? And now for some silly backronyms:

AFM: Absolutely Falsified Marketing

SIDI: Successful In Deceiving Individuals

[Kamshaaft]

^I'm all out fo rep but those posts are true and that there is some funny backronyms.

Originally Posted by Ghiadude

Diesel (surprisingly quiet) E85 complient ? Really ? In what way?

Not quite sure to make of this. In the way that you pull up to the bowser in your Commodore, shuffle a cap onto your head and don your sunglasses while simultaneously opening your door and flinching as the furnace like heat hits you like Kimbo Slice. Reach over to push on the filler door so it opens, then create a firm grasp on the plastic filler cap and push down while turning anti clockwise, and put it on top of the bowser.

Next, you take the handle corresponding to the sign marked "E85" and pull it over towards the filler neck, insert the nozzle, then hold the lever down and wait for Aktar to notice the flashing icon representing your pump on his monitor out of the corner of his eye, finish serving his customer, then press the appropriate button to turn the bowser on - at which point you stand there sweating under the intense sun, leaning against the car with one arm rested on the roof or elbow against the rear quarter trying to look cool while noticing the refreshing break from benzene fumes wafting up your nostrils.

Carry on pending to your insecurities trying to look cool doing something completely ordinary until the bowser stops humming and the subtle vibration in the pump handle ceases, slack off on the trigger then give it a couple final death squeezes until it clicks, give it a jiggle then quickly remove the nozzle while tilting it upwards in order not to drip E85 on your paintwork (although it is better for it than convential petrol).

At this point you reverse the order of the first paragraph, put the key in the ignition, turn it clockwise briefly while applying short but firm pressure to the pedal on the far right, chuck it into gear, get the hell out of there and hope to God they don't have surveillance cameras to capture licence plates - alternatively you can pull over a couple blocks down the road and with a wet rag remove the mud you splashed all over your number plates this morning to obscure your number plates.


..or do you mean "is the diesel engine E85 compliant", to which my response is "err.. ...no?".

Originally Posted by Ghiadude

The torana was a concept car that was shown at motorshow as was the coupe 60 all shine and glamour and no substance.

They're concept cars, an excercise in design by definition. They often don't amount to anything like you see them, and nobody ever said they have to. Their influence on future cars can be none at all to heavy - (take another look at that 3.6 litre Torana concept for example - that's right, much of that did make it into production in the VE). That is prt of the purpose of a concept car.

Holden, like some international manufacturers, are known for their flambouyant concept cars. Nobody said they were actually planning to put them into regular production, did you think they were originally planning to put the Efijy concept into production too? (before they got several cashed up prospects).

I know Ford tend to produce all the concepts they come out with, but think twice - The wildest Ford concept I ever saw was the TE&TS50, which while being a very cool machine and actually making it to production, wasn't anything particularly extreme. It was all very feasible. Sometimes I do wish for Ford Aus to put out concept cars on the level that some other manufacturers do, because I really, really want to see some wild Ford Aus stuff for the current and next generation to dream about - but on the other hand Holden etc sink so much money and time into something that is in the end usually not furthering their corporation (other than promotions, where co-oincidentally Ford could use more focus, perhaps it is time for a concept?).
In other words, it's only worthwhile if you've got money to away, or don't have the sense to manage it sensibley (GM).


Hope that answers a few of your questions.

P.S. You may not know this, but cars generally tend to be penned up to (an even past) a decade before you see them on the streets. 7 years is a relatively short development cycle, from pen to product (from scratch, updates like from ED to EF are nowhere near as intense or as long)
. 7 years isn't that long, you can still remember it like it was last week sometime, sometimes you even think it was (providing you're ye oldde enough).

[Ghiadude]

e85 compliant eh???

Even the holden website says its STILL "coming"
http://www.holden.com.au/holden-innovation/ecoline
that doesnt mean much because so are electric cars


the concept cars
quote http://www.goauto.com.au/mellor/mell...2573770003148D

Speaking at the Australian International Motor Show in Sydney last Thursday, Mr Gubbey said GM Holden had an even chance of playing a central role in the development of a mid-sized rear-wheel drive model for the General Motors world.

“We’re a global rear-wheel drive centre of excellence so we’re in with a shout as much as anyone else,” he said.

GM’s global product development chief Bob Lutz, who made a flying visit alongside GM’s global design chief Ed Welburn to Holden last Monday, admitted a BMW 3 Series-style model was part of GM’s forward plans from 2011 – a fact leaked by the United Auto Workers union following job negotiations in the US.

Further, Mr Lutz said a born-again “Torana” would be an obvious model to be sold by Holden, which under former boss Peter Hanenberger revealed its desire to produce a modern-day Torana by showing the TT36 concept at the 2004 Sydney motor show.

so we were led to believe they may build it ( a mid sizer)
what part of the torana made it to production?? the mid size part?? the twin turbo part? the hatch ? the colour??? the south west sydney all white interior ?????????? am i missing something ???The only similarity with anything in production today is that it used a rwd v6...... THATS IT - THATS ALL THEY USED.


coupe 60
from http://www.autoblog.com/2008/02/28/m...cks-showgoers/

Production? Yup, totally a possibility. Holden provided a number of quotes in its press release after the jump that say as much, though our favorite is, "With Coupe 60 we think we have designed a car that has the potential to write another chapter in the book of Holden icons." Somebody get this car a pen! Be sure to check out the dozens of high-res photos in the gallery below. Every single one is worth a peek.

Once again led to believe theyll build it ...one day maybe... sorta







They are excercises in sucking the general public in and making them believe that holden is doing something special.... which they of course are not.

As for being "ye olde enough" ... im far too old and wise to be a holden fanboy like someone i know..

[eb2fairmont]

I don't disagree with any of the sentiment here but I guess we're ****ed that Holden has a much better marketing department than Ford.

[Ghiadude]

Originally Posted by eb2fairmont

I don't disagree with any of the sentiment here but I guess we're ****ed that Holden has a much better marketing department than Ford.

true

: maybe....


Its just upsetting that they can claim to do so much and deliver so little, ford claims so little and delivers so much and yet the press and general public opinion swallows everything they dish out... unbelievable!!

[greenfoam]

Originally Posted by Barraxr8

Jet engines in WWII ?

Oh they'd be Messerschmitt 262 Juno 210 Engines then....

Not in world war II for the Jets but I've seen old pictures of WWII planes and Jet engines being built at fishermans bend in the archives.

However looking at it some more now seems the aircraft factory I thought was part of the Holden complex was next door and goverment owned but here are some pictures of what Holden were making during WWII

http://www.slv.vic.gov.au/argus/gid/...338/1/an006299

http://cas.awm.gov.au/photograph/011671

The Aircraft factory was seperate, few pictures from that just for history

http://cas.awm.gov.au/photograph/012242
http://cas.awm.gov.au/photograph/043183
http://nla.gov.au/nla.pic-an24877399
http://nla.gov.au/nla.pic-an24877548

[Kamshaaft]

Was it actually Holden & Co Coachbuilders or whatever they were called building this stuff, or did they just acquire and convert Fishermans Bend, which was left standing empty after the war?
In a similar way to how Mitsubishi bought out Valiant (after having got friendly with them in the Chrysler/Mitsubishi Galant program) from Chrysler when they wanted to move in to the Australian domestic market, in order to use their plants.

I'm yet to see any mention of them in the articles about wartime aircraft, though no doubt their employees worked on the war effort, as did every other company's employees who weren't posted to the frontlines, but I'm very uncertain about it being under the Holden moniker.

[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by Ghiadude

e85 compliant eh???

Even the holden website says its STILL "coming"

Holden must be shooting blanks.

[Kamshaaft]

Ghiadude, are you trying to be a pain in the butt? :

Alright, I'll give in..
It's going to require an **** busting amount of googling though to make sure I get the details right because I don't really know enough for certain about Holden*. We're not talking Valiant, or even Ford.

*[But I am learning every day! Did you know they used to build engines for Fokker Bi-planes in WWII? ]

Originally Posted by Ghiadude

e85 compliant eh???

Even the holden website says its STILL "coming"
http://www.holden.com.au/holden-innovation/ecoline
that doesnt mean much because so are electric cars

I'll tell you what does mean 'much' though, the fact that a relative of mine (and most likely a fair number of other VE owners) has been running E85 most of the time in his VE for about 2 years now without a single hicup, just as the manual in the glovebox and the sticker on the inside of the filler door advise him that he can do.

Are you going to try and deny that too, and call me a fool or a liar?

Originally Posted by Ghiadude

quote http://www.goauto.com.au/mellor/mell...2573770003148D

so we were led to believe they may build it ( a mid sizer)

Whoa, stop there. And there it is. The key, something that these cunning marketing types are extremely clever with - saying things without saying things by not saying anything but in such a manner as one, of their own volition, assumes they said something in particular.

You were lead to believe that they might build a Torana (and that's true, they might have - but they didn't) however they did not promise you a Torana in any way shape or form. They said 'look at this, wouldn't it be cool if we had one of these soon. This Torana has a 3.6 litre engine in it, and did we mention that we're planning to put into production a car with a 3.6 litre engine?"

Basically, you fell for their nothingspeak. ..and I can't blame you; Holden are bloody good at it, Ford could almost do with a team of soothsayers like Holden has of their own (they DO need PR), although I think Ford would rather not lose a chunk of credibility in what they say.

I'l give you that they were deceptive (but not dishonest) in not outright declaring that it was simply a concept as they did with the Efijy, but that is excusable as it probably was on the drawing boards at some stage (actually it was, as evidenced by the VE), although that is inconsequential to your arguement, as they never promised it to us/me/you.


Your arguement there reminds one of Sheik Al Hilali and the 'uncovered meat' debacle. A cheap or dirty trick for Holden to employ, of short skirts and seduction, ...perhaps. No cheaper than trying to use such a thing to smear Holden or whoever is in the ie of fire with though, amigo!

Originally Posted by Ghiadude

what part of the torana made it to production?? the mid size part?? the twin turbo part? the hatch ? the colour??? the south west sydney all white interior ??????????

Hah! Quit being facetious. You plainly know that pretty much everything except those features you listed (plus the Dash and then LED downlights and a couple other miniscule things - oh, and the chassis of course, not sure what they used) made it into the VE Commodore, which is a pretty damn huge amount considering it was revealed as 'just a wild concept car'.

Everything was inspired, from all the panels to the glasshouse, to the brand new and at the time unheard of 3.6 litre engine (yet to be badged the Alloytec IIRC), to the rest of the drivetrain and most obviously the exterior and the interior (besides colour and a few other choice touches which got tweaked before the final pre-production stages for the VE), and the very most notabley striking similarity - the symmetry (for RHD/LHD).












Spot the Difference.


But even after pointing out something you already knew, you'd rather believe the following? You'd rather stand by your claim and deny the lord Jesus Christ into your heart point I made earlier that an out of this world concept car is often unintended for direct production, but is an excercise in design (which showcases different technologies or ideas that may be seen in upcoming vehicles)?

I mean, mate, If I wanted to I could have just linked you to a dictionary, and a page on the concept car to debunk that claim. Try harder!

Originally Posted by Ghiadude

The only similarity with anything in production today is that it used a rwd v6...... THATS IT - THATS ALL THEY USED.

It's your choice if you want to act facetious and choose to be ignorant. But nobody ever got anywhere nice by being ignorant!! If you claim to be so old and wisened, perhaps this is some advice you should be doling out yourself!

(sorry, I reckon facetious not really offensive in this debate context, although scathing in not such a hostile way, but serious apologies for using "ignorant". It's an ugly word, but I cannot think of an equally succint adjective with the same meaning that's more polite).

Originally Posted by Ghiadude

coupe 60
from http://www.autoblog.com/2008/02/28/m...cks-showgoers/

Once again led to believe theyll build it ...one day maybe... sorta

Yup, that's right. This time they didn't even say anything that could be mistaken or misconstrued (whether accidentally or deliberately ;) ).

Originally Posted by Ghiadude

They are excercises in sucking the general public in and making them believe that holden is doing something special.... which they of course are not.

As for being "ye olde enough" ... im far too old and wise to be a holden fanboy like someone i know..

Bang on. See boss, you knew it all along. Why did you want me to tell you when you're sitting there able to call all the shots anyway?



Hahaha, 13 year old Holden fanboy with a HK Monaro poster on his wall? Once upon a time maybe, but now? Not a bloody chance...

..I'm just not weasely enough to get myself out of being the only guy backed into a corner where the sole way out is by either surrendering, or arguing the affirmative / devils advocate or whatever else..
...and I ain't going to surrender!

[greenfoam]

Originally Posted by Kamshaaft

Was it actually Holden & Co Coachbuilders or whatever they were called building this stuff, or did they just acquire and convert Fishermans Bend, which was left standing empty after the war?
In a similar way to how Mitsubishi bought out Valiant (after having got friendly with them in the Chrysler/Mitsubishi Galant program) from Chrysler when they wanted to move in to the Australian domestic market, in order to use their plants.

I'm yet to see any mention of them in the articles about wartime aircraft, though no doubt their employees worked on the war effort, as did every other company's employees who weren't posted to the frontlines, but I'm very uncertain about it being under the Holden moniker.

I've got no clue, but it would be something worth researching as to how and when GMH started working at the Fishermens bend complex, maybe it did all start with a nicely setup ex military truck production line

[greenfoam]

OK here's how it went down


"In 1936, GM-H was in the process of setting up the 20 hectare Fisherman's Bend plant with the massive financial backing of American General Motors Corporation, GM-H believed it was impregnable. Unfortunately, GM-H didn't bank on annother World War. GM-H's factories were invlved in the war effort, turning out aeroplane engines and frames, bomb cases, anti-tank guns, machine guns and other requirements of the Australian military. By the mid forties, GM-H had being forced by necessity to engage in a whole new manufacturing strategy, emerging from the war years more experienced in the manufacture of engine blocks and other components completely in-house. This set the scene for the car to be known as 'Australia's Own'.

In 1944 the GM corporation approved the concept of an Australian car. Advocates of the locally built car found that the the average Australian required a car which had space for six passengers, an overhead valve 6 cylinder motor, smart appearance and a majic 30 miles to the rationed gallon. A mock-up with square headlights was produced but was rejected by Detroit in favour of an American design.With backing from the Commonwealth Bank and the Bank of Adelaide arranged by Prime Minister Ben Chifley, a working prototype was produced. Three hand-made prototypes were then built and tested in Detroit. In late 1946 they were shipped to the Fisherman's Bend plant and subsequently tested on rough roads outside Melbourne. At this stage the Australian car was top secret until the announcement of the name and a run of 10 cars (to 'clear the line') were produced in April 1948"

[Ghiadude]

Kamshaft - Im well aware that a concept car is a styling excercise. Im also aware that torana bears a remarkable similarity to the VE.(no really?) But you are naive to think that holden didnt introduce thattorana concept and the coupe 60 concept at times that would deliberately steal the limelight from ford at strategic times. (torana at BF(?)launch)They also (as youve alluded to) made statements regarding these concept cars that were simply not true.
Its deliberatley underhanded but you know that. The torana although physically similar to VE didnt need to have a twin turbo engine if it was just a styling excercise now did it? It was designed as a marketing tool to make people believe and talk about how holden is "thinking about building a midsize car" in australia. nothing less. As for the similarities with VE - its was more about people getting used to the VE's styling without actually "seeing" it.

In regards to your relative using e85 in his/her VE - I havent read the VE user manual but ill bet it says somewhere in it that you shouldnt use 85 exclusively. Ill bet that it says that to protect the engine and fuel systen you should run the odd tank full of normal fuel. Thats not very "compatible" in my book.

[vztrt]

Originally Posted by Ghiadude

In regards to your relative using e85 in his/her VE - I havent read the VE user manual but ill bet it says somewhere in it that you shouldnt use 85 exclusively. Ill bet that it says that to protect the engine and fuel systen you should run the odd tank full of normal fuel. Thats not very "compatible" in my book.

I know that Holden were exporting Commo's to Brazil that would run e85, but the fuel system was changed as it would destroy the fuel system on the cars being sold in Australia.

[Nikked]

Lol @ holden building jets.


Is this camaro trade running along side the copcar export program, or is it a replacement, or is it just BS.

[Bossxr8]

Originally Posted by greenfoam

Not in world war II for the Jets but I've seen old pictures of WWII planes and Jet engines being built at fishermans bend in the archives.

However looking at it some more now seems the aircraft factory I thought was part of the Holden complex was next door and goverment owned but here are some pictures of what Holden were making during WWII

http://www.slv.vic.gov.au/argus/gid/...338/1/an006299

http://cas.awm.gov.au/photograph/011671

The Aircraft factory was seperate, few pictures from that just for history

http://cas.awm.gov.au/photograph/012242
http://cas.awm.gov.au/photograph/043183
http://nla.gov.au/nla.pic-an24877399
http://nla.gov.au/nla.pic-an24877548

They would have built aircraft engines, not jet engines. Jet engines were only invented very late in the war and only one type made it into production to serve, the german Me 262. Aircraft engines used in for example the Spitfire were internal combustion engines, totally different from a jet engine.

[fromBAonwards]

the Torana concept interior and the steering wheel back in 2002 looked and looks like the one in a current VE line up and specially in the SS, so i ask myself , when was the steering wheel designed in 2002 or 2005/2006?
Speaking of exporting, i think that we need to simply market a FALCON and educate the market. Take G6E Turbo for example, an absolute VE SS killer and a beautiful car!

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by fromBAonwards

the Torana concept interior and the steering wheel back in 2002 looked and looks like the one in a current VE line up and specially in the SS, so i ask myself , when was the steering wheel designed in 2002 or 2005/2006?
Speaking of exporting, i think that we need to simply market a FALCON and educate the market. Take G6E Turbo for example, an absolute VE SS killer and a beautiful car!

I'm looking at the product line ups and wondering whether Ford should make
a G6 Turbo as well, it could be a great companion to the XR6 Turbo and offer
something different to buyers looking at Berlina/Calais.

The G6E Turbo's $55,000 price tag makes it more of a Calais V competitor.
A G6 Turbo could be another head on alternative for SS Commodore too.....

[fromBAonwards]

as a Ford man i appreciate all other cars, i really do love the L76 Calais and a new L98 or even the VZII, but there is something about the FORD that sits in my heart.

Sure the Calais is tempting, 6.0L , big car, something different to say a Fairlane G8 or a G6 perhaps a Fairmont Ghia 5.4 , but seriously G6E Turbo is the top , its the best you can buy and will be a danger to cars for another 5 or 6 years to come.

[timothyds]

im a ford man to the core but im happy to hear that an Australian car company is going to make some cash as it means we can still get an Aust made car. without success the Aust car industry will fold be it ford or holden i want both to do well so we can keep fighting over which is best.