F35/JSF 'unable to land on an aircraft carrier': report - Page 4

mik · 07-03-2013, 10:51 PM

I hope your right and it turns out to be a pearler,
just after looking at the the four corners from an average ignorant non aviators point of view, it certainly seemed to have some big flaws .
But yeah what`s that old saying, believe half of what you see and none of what you hear

.

**Peuty** · 07-03-2013, 11:03 PM

I'd trust TruBlu351's opinion over "Dr" Kopp's any day of the week. I'm sure the Lightning II will be fine.

tweeked · 07-03-2013, 11:04 PM

Just look at the military equipment the US turns out. I cannot imagine that they would spend this kind of coin and time and have it not be a top level machine. Yeah most new generation hardwear has delays and cost overuns, but they get it right in the end.

ABC journalists on the other hand turn out rubbish by the truckload.

Road_Warrior · 07-03-2013, 11:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 2011G6E

There was a report that came out some years back that said Australia could "very quickly" build at least two nukes if we really needed to. That's not the point though...anyone who has seen "Tomorrow when the war began" or read the books will get a pretty realistic idea of how an invasion would go down...very very quickly, in big numbers, probably by surprise, and our tiny military wouldn't stand a chance.
Therefore we actually need something to put the odds more in our favour...and nothing does that like being able to say to an aggressor massing to the north "Hey...hey look at this", and blowing up a small nuke way out in the middle of nowhere in the desert where it won't hurt anyone, then saying to them "And now...do you really want to push us...?"

Won't ever happen though. If an invasion did happen, our government, just like the books I mentioned, will bend over so fast it wouldn't be funny. The uncomfortable truth is that we'd have to rely on allies like the USA to come and help...if they did...

Are you telling me you beleive an invasion scenario portrayed in a movie aimed at teenagers? *** LOL.

TruBlu351 · 07-03-2013, 11:55 PM

Just a few examples from that 4 Corners vid.....

The self proclaimed experts all bag the JSF idea....but never back that whining up with a viable solution.

The guy that owns his "simulation" company ran that stupid war game where there's a heap of Su-27s vs some JSFs. He has the JSFs dropping like flies.....that's just a garbage in garbage out simulation where he sets all the parameters in his own software. There's nothing credible about it. For starters, the Su-27 radars would never have picked up the JSFs on their radars in the first place. Can't shoot your long range radar missiles when there's nothing on your radar screen ;)

Was just talking to a few of the F16 lads from the US. They had one setup with 8 x F16s vs 2 x F22s. Guess who won?!! The F16s had their radar jammers on full power and did all they could to stay alive.....within a very short time, they were all "dead" and never saw a thing! It was like clubbing baby seals

Having a lower observable/stealth 5th Gen capability and one of the best electronic warfare suites on board, it puts you way ahead of any 4th Gen fighter (high performance but no stealth).

Tell me about any production vehicle test phase that doesn't have bugs to iron out.....just like Ford or Holden making a new vehicle....but Holden would have a lot more though!! Many of the negative 4 Corners statements from those "experts" were made made over 5 years ago, or referred to defects that were found on "test" aircraft ages ago, but were made to sound like these problems were only happening last week. There still are bugs getting ironed out, but there are fixes in place.....all part of the OT&E phase of any platform (operational test and evaluation)....granted, this one has blown out a fair bit.

Mr Goooon from Air Power Australia, along with Mr Kopp (self proclaimed experts) have their heads in the cold war ice age sand. They won't be satisfied until they dig up the F-111s and get them flying again.

.....the JSF doesn't have TFR (Terrain Following Radar) like the F-111, they say....so it won't be able to sneak into targets areas below the radar at 150ft at night. You don't need to "fly below the radar" in a JSF. That's a 4th Gen fighter mindset. With a JSF you have the option to fly at high altitude, right inside the radar coverage area, even with the target area heavily defended with modern SAMs.

Maybe they can learn from a few classic movie quotes from Predator!!...it puts a whole new spin on the game when you can become invisible!!

Poncho: She says the jungle... it just came alive and took him.

Dutch: What the hell are you?
Predator: [distorted replay] What the hell are you?

Poncho: Not a thing. Not a ********** trace. No blood, no bodies... We hit nothing!

What about that poor French guy that travelled all the way from Paris to sell Australia some French Rafale fighter jets. I felt so sorry for him when he'd only just arrived and our government announced the JSF deal before he even got a chance to open his briefcase and offer us a deal....lol. Who gives a flying rats backside? Send him home with his old piece of junk toys

As if that thing would ever be a credible solution to take us into the next 30 years....

2011G6E · 08-03-2013, 10:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Road_Warrior

Are you telling me you beleive an invasion scenario portrayed in a movie aimed at teenagers? *** LOL.

No...I believe military reports over the years of the strength of the countries to our north.
Remember the big riots in Jakarta some years ago? The Indonesian military mobilised just one division of their army to patrol and quell the riots...and that one division was larger in number than our entire combined manpower numbers in the air force, navy, and army.
Basically, if it happened, it wouldn't be a fair fight...

Back to the F35...there was a Pentagon report revealed in the last few days that said it had numerous problems, ones that matter to Australia and Canada. If it gets too cold, parts of it won't operate. If it gets a bit hot and one small part shuts down, the whole plane becomes useless. It's designed to work in a narrow band of temperatures.
More importantly, the pilots who are being trained to fly the plane can't do anything much more than take off and fly straight ahead gently...no tight turns, no sharp climbing or diving, no speed above Mach 0.9...and these are the pilots who might be flying it one day in combat! That's like sending out a V8 Supercar driver for training and saying "Now drive it like grandma, nice and slow...don't worry about what will happen on sunday when you are forced to drive it in anger".

There's been so much money poured into it that they won't skip this plane and go on to something else...they've gone too far into it.
Interestingly, they don't "skip" plane numbers...it didn't jump from F111 to F14, it didn't skip from F18 to F22...the numbers in between are apparently planned models that didn't work out or never got beyond prototype stage...but the F35 has had so much money thrown at it that they doggedly just have to keep trying.

**Polyal** · 08-03-2013, 10:31 AM

I also saw that doco and couldnt believe how this thing has been pushed out. Tell me again why Australia needs these? I think its an awesome (to be) bit of kit.

I will admit to having NFI about these jets nor their history but even if what some of the stuff in the doco is true then wow..its a little bit out of control.

Whats a typical development cycle for these things?

I too felt sorry for that French guy, it bothers me we have such people in politics running the show and what credintials do they actually have? They just get handed portfolios FFS.

**PridenJoy** · 08-03-2013, 01:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Polyal

I too felt sorry for that French guy, it bothers me we have such people in politics running the show and what credintials do they actually have? They just get handed portfolios FFS.

I quite often think about that. Many countries have an ex-General/Admiral etc as their defence ministers (including USA) but we tend to just trust anyone to do the job, not very smart I don't think.

**Silver Ghia** · 08-03-2013, 01:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 2011G6E

Back to the F35...there was a Pentagon report revealed in the last few days that said it had numerous problems, ones that matter to Australia and Canada. If it gets too cold, parts of it won't operate. If it gets a bit hot and one small part shuts down, the whole plane becomes useless. It's designed to work in a narrow band of temperatures.
More importantly, the pilots who are being trained to fly the plane can't do anything much more than take off and fly straight ahead gently...no tight turns, no sharp climbing or diving, no speed above Mach 0.9...and these are the pilots who might be flying it one day in combat! That's like sending out a V8 Supercar driver for training and saying "Now drive it like grandma, nice and slow...don't worry about what will happen on sunday when you are forced to drive it in anger".

Believe that, if that what was reported, and you probably believe anything that's reported in the media. Very misleading.

burnz · 08-03-2013, 03:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 2011G6E

Back to the F35...there was a Pentagon report revealed in the last few days that said it had numerous problems, ones that matter to Australia and Canada. If it gets too cold, parts of it won't operate. If it gets a bit hot and one small part shuts down, the whole plane becomes useless. It's designed to work in a narrow band of temperatures.
.

sorry to butcher your post:

but if temperature is a problem, then the plane cant go over 2,000 feet.
gets -50*~-180* up there, a lot colder than canada..

Keepleft · 11-03-2013, 09:35 PM

Political questions:-
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...&v=0Gzj-d80Q5U

This Pdf will be of interest, you may choose right click and 'save':-
http://cryptome.org/dodi/2013/dsca13-0308.pdf

Quote:

Originally Posted by 2011G6E

No...I believe military reports over the years of the strength of the countries to our north.
Remember the big riots in Jakarta some years ago? The Indonesian military mobilised just one division of their army to patrol and quell the riots...and that one division was larger in number than our entire combined manpower numbers in the air force, navy, and army.
Basically, if it happened, it wouldn't be a fair fight...

They wouldn't stand all that much chance, actually - so your right - it wouldn't be a fair fight. They have enough trouble in West Papua, despite 20-30years of transmigrassi of predominately Javanese into that melanesian land.

Yes, their defences are modernizing and they are training with us, and the yanks again. Their main concern is China, hence her new fighters are based 'north'.

ford man xf · 14-03-2013, 12:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 2011G6E

No...I believe military reports over the years of the strength of the countries to our north.
Remember the big riots in Jakarta some years ago? The Indonesian military mobilised just one division of their army to patrol and quell the riots...and that one division was larger in number than our entire combined manpower numbers in the air force, navy, and army.
Basically, if it happened, it wouldn't be a fair fight...

Don't be fooled into believeing that an armies size wins wars.

TruBlu351 · 14-03-2013, 12:42 AM

It'd be a turkey shoot as they try to cross that mote!!

mik · 14-03-2013, 11:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Keepleft

Political questions:-
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...&v=0Gzj-d80Q5U

This Pdf will be of interest, you may choose right click and 'save':-
http://cryptome.org/dodi/2013/dsca13-0308.pdf

They wouldn't stand all that much chance, actually - so your right - it wouldn't be a fair fight. They have enough trouble in West Papua, despite 20-30years of transmigrassi of predominately Javanese into that melanesian land.

Yes, their defences are modernizing and they are training with us, and the yanks again. Their main concern is China, hence her new fighters are based 'north'.

Good find Keepleft, the aircraft still looks like a major turkey.

**Theo@BluePower** · 14-03-2013, 12:29 PM

The Biggest problem with the JSF product is the existence of the F22.

Maritime strike, backfires over the horizon from our northern neighbors is a pretty big deal.......

Fighting wars in the air is more than just one aircraft, the F22 is totally useless without its supporting team (rivet joint/awacs/tankers)st like any other aircraft.

The Raptor is impressive, putting it mildly, the JSF is at best unproven. Since we need range and stealth, it almost writes off JSF from the get go.

To understand how an aircraft will go in combat means we need to analyse past conflicts and apply techniques of the past to the present and see how technology would change them.

Vectored thrust in SU30 Family is apparently MANUALLY OPERATED. In combat, the more things you need to think about over and above breaking out an opponent on radar or running for good deflection on a cannon shot you may find out all too late that its a 2v1 not a 1v1. 2v1 with hornet/eagle/falcon with western tactics have proven, loosely based on the irsaeli model to be extremely effective. over 100 wins to zero air to air losses in the F15 must tell you that stealth etc is only part of the deal.

I cannot see our adversaries being able to afford large numbers of 5th gen aircraft coming on line.

Our Superhornet boys have got good range, good weapons and good tactics. Over water dirty configuration i would back them over the sukhoi all things considered.

The JSF wont fly as far. That bothers me, makes our country smaller.

We need 20 raptors, 120 Rhino's and growlers and possibly some JSF's in case we fight over our own land.

That gives us

Air superiority over water
Air superiority over land
Long range maritime strike with stealth.

12 backfire's coming over the horizon?? really? Imagine that. 4 raptors on a top end BARcap will sort it, with 4 more on standby at 77sq.

Then again, im just a mechanic

Chris

mik · 14-03-2013, 12:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TruBlu351

It'd be a turkey shoot as they try to cross that mote!!

my worry would be it`s an awful big mote.

bungarra · 14-03-2013, 10:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Theo@BluePower

The Biggest problem with the JSF product is the existence of the F22.

Maritime strike, backfires over the horizon from our northern neighbors is a pretty big deal.......

Fighting wars in the air is more than just one aircraft, the F22 is totally useless without its supporting team (rivet joint/awacs/tankers)st like any other aircraft.

The Raptor is impressive, putting it mildly, the JSF is at best unproven. Since we need range and stealth, it almost writes off JSF from the get go.

To understand how an aircraft will go in combat means we need to analyse past conflicts and apply techniques of the past to the present and see how technology would change them.

Vectored thrust in SU30 Family is apparently MANUALLY OPERATED. In combat, the more things you need to think about over and above breaking out an opponent on radar or running for good deflection on a cannon shot you may find out all too late that its a 2v1 not a 1v1. 2v1 with hornet/eagle/falcon with western tactics have proven, loosely based on the irsaeli model to be extremely effective. over 100 wins to zero air to air losses in the F15 must tell you that stealth etc is only part of the deal.

I cannot see our adversaries being able to afford large numbers of 5th gen aircraft coming on line.

Our Superhornet boys have got good range, good weapons and good tactics. Over water dirty configuration i would back them over the sukhoi all things considered.

The JSF wont fly as far. That bothers me, makes our country smaller.

We need 20 raptors, 120 Rhino's and growlers and possibly some JSF's in case we fight over our own land.

That gives us

Air superiority over water
Air superiority over land
Long range maritime strike with stealth.

12 backfire's coming over the horizon?? really? Imagine that. 4 raptors on a top end BARcap will sort it, with 4 more on standby at 77sq.

Then again, im just a mechanic

Chris

And to make sure it all works well, JORN watches them take off and land from the bases to the north and the range of JORN for "antiquated technology" as the media put it, is very effective, picked up the B1B and F117 on Transits.

2011G6E · 15-03-2013, 05:54 AM

The yanks won't sell us the F22...that's the only problem.

Is it true that the F15 is the only modern fighter/bomber that has never been shot down in combat...?

If so...and our government could overcome it's need to have the latest and shiniest toys...then maybe some F15's would be a good choice...?

Then again, they threw away the perfectly suited F111 didn't they...

burnz · 15-03-2013, 06:48 AM

f111 and f15 dont have parts, the wreaking yard is empty..

bungarra · 15-03-2013, 06:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by burnz

f111 and f15 dont have parts, the wreaking yard is empty..

Israel has just been modernising F15C and D models, part of that is manufacturing components via IMI not otherwise available after using one F15for a template air craft and from their Lavi design fighter that was being developed when the US first refused to sell F16's to Israel.