Countdown to new goodies

[Aaron_EF8]

Originally Posted by Casper

Dont worry Doc.. once the cars running at the target I have chosen I plan to make her shine.. may need to talk to you then.
Trust me though, its not fun. The amount of questions I've already thrown at G&D is enough to drive most people nuts. You may just tell me to go away and bug someone else (I'm suprised Glenn, Matt and Dave havent yet) _2:

G&D (or any other company you have/had supported in the past) would be mad to tell you to go away with the amount of free/cheap advertising you give them.

Stockstandard (and others) simply asked a question, which still hasn't been answered, which automatically questions the reputation and results of this dyno run (or 15). The question being what reading did you get with the intake pipe attached to the TB, but with the airbox removed.

If you expect people to believe the power figures put down in this thread, without any real proof, then I think you are mistaken. It's simple human nature to not believe things over the internet that are basically, unbelieveable.

I (and others) really fail to understand how an airbox can have a 9rwkw restriction at approx 3500rpm, and then have a 10rwkw restriction at around 5500rpm. It makes no sense at all.

[stockstandard]

Originally Posted by G&D PERFORMANCE

I have many customers or potential customers that ask questions & I'm happy to help anyone of them & always have.Our race track results speak for themselves what are your acheivements.You on the other hand insult my intelegence based on your E-series knowledge & VAST expertise ( with comments like your ECU reset post.I prefer not to waste my time on thrill seekers like you who have nothing better to do than stir up trouble,getting a thrill out of discrediting people that are genuinely trying to help the AU community.Maybe you should spend more time in the E-series forums & help out with what you know best.

Thanks for your time.

Regards Glenn

Interesting response...

What kind of results do I need before we can talk further?

[Mark351]

One stage HELL HP cam please...

[Casper]

I'll put an end to this simply. Without actually being in front of the dyno and monitoring evey step of the process there is no way to convince you guys it happened. Thats fine, I dont feel a need to justify my decision to do that.
Instead I'll let G&D finish the mods that we are doing and I'll take it to the track. ET and MPH will be the final judge I think. Is that fair?

Originally Posted by Aaron_EF8

G&D (or any other company you have/had supported in the past) would be mad to tell you to go away with the amount of free/cheap advertising you give them.

Oh, and as for free advertising... this thread is its own animal. If people were not interested they wouldnt have read and responded.. Why did you read it and respond?
G&D have been around doing big things a lot longer than I have. I think starting a thread in a forum and having a few dozen people paticipate in it is hardly massive advertising on a global scale you make it out to be.

[1TUFFUTE]

hi GnD just a question im sure u wont mind answering,(after the latest questioin of corse)

but do u have any times on cars that u guys have worked on that are simalar to mine or caspers..just to make some of us feel better...dont worry i wont say ur bragging bud :

[FRDGAL]

An impressive gain there Shane. Well done to G&D. Time to 'bin' the current mods and book mine in. PM headed Glenns way. I want my super special secret goodies too - and a sticker! :

[russellw]

Originally Posted by Aaron_EF8

Stockstandard (and others) simply asked a question, which still hasn't been answered, which automatically questions the reputation and results of this dyno run (or 15). The question being what reading did you get with the intake pipe attached to the TB, but with the airbox removed.

I (and others) really fail to understand how an airbox can have a 9rwkw restriction at approx 3500rpm, and then have a 10rwkw restriction at around 5500rpm. It makes no sense at all.

Actually, it makes extremely good sense and if you had any understanding air flow dynamics. To put it into simple terms for you:

1. The requirement to filter incoming air into an engine is purely related to longevity of the engine - for example F1 engines run with almost no air filtration and as large a ram air box as the rules will allow them.

2. Anything that sits between free air flow and the actual intake manifold is going to provide some loss of available air flow to the engine. This effect is exacerbated in a dyno situation as even with fans the available air quanity is not the equivalent of (even the relatively ineffectual) standard ram air effect.

3. Typically factory air intake setups on most cars will be optimised to provide sufficient flow of air for the RPM range they are generally expected to operate in.

4. Any improvement to the air flow capabilities of the inlet manifold and/or head or operation at higher RPM than that factory operating ranges will result in insufficient air flow to meet the requirements of the engine with the potential to see further loss of horsepower as RPM increases.

There are actually a lot of other factors as well but for the purpose of a simplified explanation this will suffice.

Russ

[stockstandard]

I think the confusion lies when a significant restriction at 3500rpm seems to have no greater restriction at higher rpm when twice the amount of air is being drawn through.

[Aaron_EF8]

We are talking about a 120rwkw AU 6 cylinder on a dyno, not a 20,000rpm V10 3 Litre F1 car doing 300Km/h. An AU 6 cylinder and an EF or EL 6 cylinder engine have a lot more in common than a modern Formula One engine.

Actually, it makes extremely good sense and if you had any understanding air flow dynamics. To put it into simple terms for you

Actually, if you had any sense and understanding of air flow dynamics, it would make more sense to you.

I think the confusion lies when a significant restriction at 3500rpm seems to have no greater restriction at higher rpm when twice the amount of air is being drawn through.

My point exactly.

[1TUFFUTE]

that sound like french to me anyway,speak english please not everyone is an expert :

[G&D PERFORMANCE]

Originally Posted by dev5 ute

hi GnD just a question im sure u wont mind answering,(after the latest questioin of corse)

but do u have any times on cars that u guys have worked on that are simalar to mine or caspers..just to make some of us feel better...dont worry i wont say ur bragging bud :

The only AU I6 track attack we have attempted is with Hamo's AU running a 14.3.

The development was performed on the car by us some time ago utilising a mild cam & cylinder head option tuned with unichip.We recently dyno'd it at 147rwkw's.

We have a lot more R&D under our belt since then & once finished we'll get back to the track.

[Casper]

In the end it really doesnt matter does it? My money, my car, my mod. If you dont believe it I can understand that and accept it. It is your right to (and questioning is good in the end). Still, the ET and MPH will tell the tale in the end wont it. I think a "shakedown run" soon enough will be in order to put it all to bed and, after all the other work we do on the car this week, I dont think the 10rwkw airbox will have much of a spot in the sun. Hell, I put it up as it was the least impressive result to date..

[1TUFFUTE]

Originally Posted by G&D PERFORMANCE

The only AU I6 track attack we have attempted is with Hamo's AU running a 14.3.

The development was performed on the car by us some time ago utilising a mild cam & cylinder head option tuned with unichip.We recently dyno'd it at 147rwkw's.

We have a lot more R&D under our belt since then & once finished we'll get back to the track.

well that sounds like a good start anyway...nice work

[Casper]

Originally Posted by dev5 ute

well that sounds like a good start anyway...nice work

it was an auto as well..

[Kev_BLNXR8_Ute]

Wow 3 more pages in just one day...what alot to read :nutsycuck

Many things I want to say but I think it has all been covered to some degree.

The G&D Cold Air Intakes work. Simple as that. I was there, I even helped fitting it ect. The car did not leave the dyno at any time and all the testing was done by exactly the same guiedlines.

I belive a few of the main reasons it works so well is due to, The amont of air the box holds, the surface area the filter covers, it does not draw air over the hot radiator and the box is insulated to help with heat soak from the engine bay.

I will take it for a drive if you like casper and spend some time doing extensive trye reserch if you like..... : :sm_headba :sm_headba :sm_headba

Kev......

[Walkinshaw]

well, I could post a few things, might reserve my judgement, but based on the contence of that dyno graph its not looking positive so far, not at all. (8.4%)

Box looks good. What MAP pressures were seen with the stock box and with the new box (kPa)? What MAP pressures (kPa) were seen with no box?


on another note. I have a few fluid dynamics books here if people wish to borrow them!!

[Casper]

Originally Posted by Kev_xr8_ute

I will take it for a drive if you like casper and spend some time doing extensive trye reserch if you like..... : :sm_headba :sm_headba :sm_headba

Kev......

Sorry mate, you bought the BA, you live with it now

As for the airbox......

In the end it really doesnt matter to me if people agree, disagree or ar indifferent to if it works or not. This is because:
a) My car
b) My money
c) My chioces
d) The airbox setup is part of a much bigger picture
e) It has has proven benifits on other cars
f) The vast majority of those who want there 2cends worth of disagreement registered actually do not drive a car which would even fit this airbox, nor would they ever consider getting one if it did.

So really what I see is this...
People are disputing the readings on a mod they really haven’t seen in detail, on a car model they don’t have, running an engine they don’t have that has a reputation for unusual behavior to mods, from a dyno that has been used and accepted by some of the fastest cars on this forum and LS1, by a company that has be modifying performance cars since before most of us were born, who hold national records, who have made a long term business based on “no rubbish” results?
This is based on a few years of amateur intake fiddling, some discussions with a few engineers and maybe a book or two? Sorry guys but I don’t mind if you don’t believe it and need to try and justify it to the forums, but don’t expect to be given a soapbox here. If it didn’t react as you expected to your cars then feel free to make your comments but its not your cars, its mine. Its not your money, its mine and its not your ET and MPH, its mine. Personally I am happy with the result and will be seeing the results on the track soon enough I hope.
I guess its just lucky for you that its not available for E series cars.. so you don’t have to lose any sleep over it either.

Understand that this thread is simply about a set of mods I'm doing to my car. Feel free to read and comment but if you start agrueing a point that has absolutely no relavence to you then dont you think its getting all a bit hard? I mean seriously, whats the point? : In the end just say its great or you dont agree... to be honest I'm just letting people know whats being done, I am not really interested is debating flow dynamics, filter properties or the price of fish food in France. I have got a set goal in mind, G&D are doing mods to reach that and when the car hits the track over the next 12 months we are going to reach that goal. Argueing over what is, by rights, a very minor mod like this is stupid in epic porportions. For all those who disagree with it.. what do you expect to gain? Respect? Ego? Me to rip it out of the car and drive my car off a cliff? Sorry, not going to happen

[AUIII]

Not only did you gain more power but it looks awesome as well. G&D can you please open up shop in Brisbane :

[Kev_BLNXR8_Ute]

Originally Posted by AUIII

Not only did you gain more power but it looks awesome as well. G&D can you please open up shop in Brisbane :

If you give them a call Im sure they could arange to mail you a CAI and you could fit it your self....The real question is, Can they keep up to demand???

[XR6-VCT-2000]

Don't worry about all the laa-dee-daa Casper, I for one will keep my critical comments to myself until i actually see it running after mods complete, sounds good so far though ;) . I have eaten my words plenty of times years ago due to jumping the gun too soon, from to even some of the smallest mods making a huge difference on 1 car , to on another car the same mod but not much difference at all. It's all good so far ;) , keep it coming, you got me hanging for more details .

..To people nit-picking -->Allthough we all have the same cars sorta here, they are still all "individual" cars/motors with their own good and bad points to them all, all which can help a mod actually work well - or not do much at all. So save the judgement until you see the final results.

Again plenty of thanks to G&D Performance, Nice to see someone taking the time to work with the VCT engine as no-one else seems to of have. I allways thought the VCT had plenty more potential than what it can do , reason why i bought it !, and now just by chance you guys are starting to look into it .. WD .. keep up the good work, looking foward to hearing the final results on Caspers car, and also maybe any other kind of advancements/mods can be had with the VCT ... cheers ;)

[xr8ute]

Originally Posted by stockstandard

I think the confusion lies when a significant restriction at 3500rpm seems to have no greater restriction at higher rpm when twice the amount of air is being drawn through.

But is it really as simple as a steady "stream" of air at 3500rpm or 7000rpm?

Wouldn't it be a sequence of pulses/waves, changing in frequency as rpm rises?

And surely pulsing air would have significantly different behaviour in an airbox/intake pipe environment than a steady stream of air...?

And why is everyone so hung up on airflow? What about air temperature?

Question for G&D. What is more significant when designing an airbox for the AU; the airflow or the air temperature?

Where is the IAT sensor in the i6?

[stockstandard]

Originally Posted by Casper

In the end it really doesnt matter to me if people agree, disagree or ar indifferent to if it works or not. This is because:
a) My car
b) My money
c) My chioces
d) The airbox setup is part of a much bigger picture
e) It has has proven benifits on other cars
f) The vast majority of those who want there 2cends worth of disagreement registered actually do not drive a car which would even fit this airbox, nor would they ever consider getting one if it did.
...
This is based on a few years of amateur intake fiddling, some discussions with a few engineers and maybe a book or two? Sorry guys but I don’t mind if you don’t believe it and need to try and justify it to the forums, but don’t expect to be given a soapbox here. If it didn’t react as you expected to your cars then feel free to make your comments but its not your cars, its mine. Its not your money, its mine and its not your ET and MPH, its mine. Personally I am happy with the result and will be seeing the results on the track soon enough I hope.
I guess its just lucky for you that its not available for E series cars.. so you don’t have to lose any sleep over it either.

Understand that this thread is simply about a set of mods I'm doing to my car. Feel free to read and comment but if you start agrueing a point that has absolutely no relavence to you then dont you think its getting all a bit hard? I mean seriously, whats the point? : In the end just say its great or you dont agree... to be honest I'm just letting people know whats being done, I am not really interested is debating flow dynamics, filter properties or the price of fish food in France. I have got a set goal in mind, G&D are doing mods to reach that and when the car hits the track over the next 12 months we are going to reach that goal. Argueing over what is, by rights, a very minor mod like this is stupid in epic porportions. For all those who disagree with it.. what do you expect to gain? Respect? Ego? Me to rip it out of the car and drive my car off a cliff? Sorry, not going to happen

Ok, your missing the point completely.Anything posted on a forum is subject to discussion, and for the first time this otherwise pointless thread has some technical debate (although still very one sided) and you want to crush it.

I have raised concerns (which I dont think is a bad thing at all), and backed up everything I have said with the source of that info so everyone knows where i am coming from and has the opportunity to correct me if im wrong (and there is a good chance I am wrong), but all you guys seem to be doing is labeling me and others knockers. Do you want a forum where the only way members know how to modify cars is to write checks? Why not actually address those points im raising - Im not trying to label this product useless, just trying to understand how it is supposed to work.

Just because people like myself dont have a business name doesnt make what we say wrong, or not worthy of a response and I find your attitude towards amateur builders very poor. Yes I am an amateur, but that doesnt mean that everything I do is not to a professional standard. My work certainly stands up well against the 'professionals' you were flying the flag for for so long!

And why cant I discuss a product that has no relevance to me? Am I not allowed to post in V8 tech because I drive an I6? As much as you would like to separate yourselves from e-series, the fact remains that your engines are very similar to ours (especially seeing as how many of us have a number of AU parts in our cars), and if it apparently works so well for you guys then naturally we will be interested to see if it works on ours. Many of us e-series guys know people with AU's, so you would think if you treated us as potential customers we would spread the word for you. Guess not. It may be irrelevant to you in your grand scheme, but when you post about a 10rwkw restriction in a factory setup people are going to take notice.

Re-read my posts - I have raised valid some points and given enough detail so that anyone has the opportunity to point out where my thinking is wrong.

[xr8ute]

Originally Posted by Casper

ET and MPH will be the final judge I think.

Amen to that brother!!!

Just dont forget to post up the RA from the day, so we can take the weather out of the equation as well.

[stockstandard]

Originally Posted by xr8ute

And why is everyone so hung up on airflow? What about air temperature?

Question for G&D. What is more significant when designing an airbox for the AU; the airflow or the air temperature?

Where is the IAT sensor in the i6?

Intersting you say that, if you look at this picture you will see i have fitted an air temp sensor near the outlet of the airbox, which I datalog along with every other aspect of the engine, so I know a thing or to about the apparent heat build up in the airbox

[xr8ute]

Originally Posted by stockstandard

will see i have fitted an air temp sensor near the outlet of the airbox

Looks good. What sort of air temps do you see vs ambient?

Are you the guy running the megasquirt?

Have you had a chance to get track or dyno numbers from it yet?

[stockstandard]

Yeah im running an MS2, but unfortunately no track or dyno yet - Ive been overseas for a while and otherwise occupied with work commitments (slack i know : )

Comparing in box air temps to ambient, the biggest difference I can find in any datalog is 2 degrees, and that is at idle. As soon as the engine has some rpm, the temp is ambient or withing 1 degree, and the resolution of the sensor is 1 degree.

Edit: Actually no i lie. Looking at datalogs from the middle of summer (damm hot days, 35-40 degrees) and the difference goes to 6-7 degrees at times. This is comparing the running measured temperatures to the initial temperature read on that day (so air temp with cold engine vs air temp with hot running engine). My datalogs are usually done over a short period of time so it should be a reasonable comparison.

[jonbays]

Originally Posted by Casper

This brings up a good point though. Yes, we do have an expected power level for the mods however, just looking through the forums, I am trying to find the highest rwkw from an NA I6 auto in an AU/E Series. Best I can find is 152rwkw based on a known reputable dyno.

Anyone find something higher? I'm just curious to see what the actual highest rwkw is for an NA I6 SOHC auto.

(dont bother posting numbers unless there is proof and it is done on a dyno that is known to be reputable ie APS, Hallam, G&D, Spiro's etc).

Best I ever got on Spiro's Autotech Sydney dyno was 144rwkw from my Auto!

[jonbays]

Originally Posted by stockstandard

Yep, I know this. I have messed around with lots of different intake pipes and TB in the past and have a good understanding of what works and what doesnt. It doesnt change the results though as only the airbox was removed, the intake pipe remained connected so the air speed at the TB would be the same in both cases. It was not only my car that was run in this way either - every car I saw go on the dyno that day had a shot with the airbox lifted and I never saw anything other than a few kw gain (and none lost any power). Simply put, that day showed that the airbox was bugger all restriction on those cars (mostly modified e-series).

I also have read autospeeds review of airboxes where they flowed tested various factory airboxes of and found the stock falcon airbox to be the highest flowing (some other was able to flow higher with minor mods iirc). If 10kw can be gained in what is arguably one of the best air boxes, imagine how many kw are being thrown away in all these other cars!

And on top of that, I have spoken to an engineer who worked on the changes to the intake of the AU from EL and he said that it was the head/cam/valve combination that is the restriction in an AU and nothing you can do before the TB will have any significant affect on power (other than getting colder air which always helps). He explained that this is why they were able to sacrifice flow in the intake pipe to achieve less induction noise that the EL without decreasing the engines power.

Sorry guys I am 100% with stockstandard on this. I too have tried and all this airbox and fliter mod stuff is just really marginal gain. I saw the dyno sheet and I have to say if there is a linear gain right through the range with a mod like this i don't believe it and you couldn't explain it without bull#$^&*NG. look at the dyno info again and print off the same two grahs with rwkw and AF ratio not torque and lets look at that.

[Laminge]

For the benefit of us all, wouldn't it be best to be detailed in another thread rather than lost in this one?

I know I would definitely be interested to read the personal experiences of what and what does not work.

Aaron Ef, thanks for the great laugh, needed that this morning.

: : : : : : :

[G&D PERFORMANCE]

Originally Posted by stockstandard

Intersting you say that, if you look at this picture you will see i have fitted an air temp sensor near the outlet of the airbox, which I datalog along with every other aspect of the engine, so I know a thing or to about the apparent heat build up in the airbox

Then you should also know that a steel intake pipe becomes a major heat sink heating up intake air tenfold over plastic or rubber in a hot engine bay.And that inlet air temp measurement is most critical at the point closest to where it enters the engine not much earlier in the inlet tract.

Glenn