Falcon better than Taurus?

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by FPV GTHO

When Taurus was still midsized, it was the one selling the high numbers. Ever since Ford announced they would drop it and introduced the Fusion and 500, the Fusion has picked up the sales. When Taurus came back as a large car, its been playing second fiddle. Its no different really to why Fairlane never outsold Falcon. Needless to say comparing sales numbers to population doesnt make one program more viable than the other, they still require the raw numbers irregardless.

Don't get me wrong, I agree with you that a vehicle must have sufficient sales to sustain local manufacturing,
our Falcon survives at lower numbers because of increased plant efficiency and reasonably high retail prices

Long term sustainability of local manufacturing hinges on Ford making the right decision on
products that sell and return sufficient income to justify keeping the doors open and in order
to do that we must have a product that is saleable to at least other countries in our region.

[FPV GTHO]

I think theres still room to target the UK personally. Currency shifts have turned against them but at the end of the day its still better than tooling up for LHD and sending them to the US to sell at less than fleet price.

[atec77]

[QUOTE=Brazen]Full article..

Called flogging a dead horse
Australian buy rwd larger cars for a good reason , it's hot and dry much f the time with affordable fuel and like the pommies we drag stuff behind the car , the last offering in fwd by Ford sank like a stone so if they want to continue selling 3ok a year in the falcon or it's replacement supply whats needed and desired or get outa town
No Brainer ?

[chevypower]

This is one of those topics that never really goes away. It's like the Falcon only needs to exist in Australia. It's the only market where people insist on having it. It would be a niche product everywhere else. I'm in Florida right now, and rented a Charger V6, closest thing you can get to a Falcon here I guess. I thought it would be exciting to get a RWD sedan. It was alright, niceish... It didn't make me want one really badly though, actually I got pretty bored of it. I couldn't fault it, I just didn't really find it that exciting to drive. It wasn't slow by any means, it handled well, rode nicely... it was just a car I got bored of driving. It would make even less sense when I get back to Idaho. Plus most of the Chargers you see on the road are in rental and police fleets. People don't really get excited about them. I don't think I would pick it over the Taurus, though I haven't driven the new Taurus but it looks a lot nicer inside and out. I just don't think the mass market is demanding to have cars like the Falcon outside of Australia. If the Mondeo works well in Europe and the Taurus does well in North America, there's no logical reason for Ford to do much with the Falcon.
I think it was Flappist who suggested that Ford might use RWD on a future Lincoln product. Ford may want to globalize the Lincoln brand as its premium brand. This would make sense to me as Europe only cares about RWD on luxury branded cars, North America is probably very similar that way, though it could be AWD, and people would be just as happy, and there really needs to be a Town Car replacement of some sort. The current model has been around for over a decade and still looks good today, but i think chauffeurs would like a replacement model. It will be interesting to see how it all happens, but I know the end result won't be all bad news.

[Swedishmoose]

Originally Posted by jpd80

Don't get me wrong, I agree with you that a vehicle must have sufficient sales to sustain local manufacturing,
our Falcon survives at lower numbers because of increased plant efficiency and reasonably high retail prices

Long term sustainability of local manufacturing hinges on Ford making the right decision on
products that sell and return sufficient income to justify keeping the doors open and in order
to do that we must have a product that is saleable to at least other countries in our region.

Hi.....

well..the only reason why Broadmeadows and Ford Australia's production is still allive can be explained by all the money the federal gov and Victorian gov is pumping into the facilities.
Broadmeadows and Geelong might be productive but last year only about 35000 cars left the premices.

A modern car factory needs to produce roughly 100000 cars a year to break even.
Everything below that figure needs to be supported or is called Porsche. They charge an arm and a leg for a car...Ford sells everyday cars and the margins are a lot lower.

Unfortunately the high aussie dollar, low import tariffs and the fact that more and more cheap asian producers enter the market, are not really helping the case here.

The Aussie gov had to deal out a free trade agreement with the US and that is also a heavy burden for FoA. Its a lot easier to import and tinker arround with a new Taurus design instead of engineering something unique for the handful of Aussies that would like to buy a Falcon ( i am one of them by the way ).

The biggest strategic fault FoMoCo and FoA have done in the past is the fact, that neither the underpinnings of the Falcon/Territory nor the very nice I6 engine have made it overseas. Or they could have exported the Falcon in a LHD configuration to Europe and place it above the Mondeo. As everybody knows....the Europeans had a RWD Scorpio.....the Falcon could have taken that position.
They could have sold it in Brazil / Argentina or even North America.

It is hard to admit but GM/Holden did it so much better with the Commodore by giving that model the opportunity to grow outside Australia/New Zealand.

I love the Aussie Falcon because it is a decent car with all necessary options you really need (not the ones that a marketing clown claims to be essential).

Unfortunately (just look arround in our society)....fewer and fewer people have an own opinion..they swim with the mainstream and undergo brainwashing for a while....they buy Japanese, Korean or in the near future possibly Chinese and find hundreds of arguments why they think it was the better choice...

The handful Falcon lovers are simply not enough to justify a local production.

They should have put the next gen Falcon, Territory and Mustang on one platform with export possibilities to Europe, North-and South America

IMHO


I hope there is still hope....


The Moose

[Joe5619]

Originally Posted by Swedishmoose

Broadmeadows and Geelong might be productive but last year only about 35000 cars left the premices.

That is not right.. There were 29,516 Falcons, 9,099 Utes & 11,558 territories sold last year. You got to figure production has to be around this numbers somewhere for the year..

[Swedishmoose]

Originally Posted by Joe5619

That is not right.. There were 29,516 Falcons, 9,099 Utes & 11,558 territories sold last year. You got to figure production has to be around this numbers somewhere for the year..

Hi there...

I think i got confused with all the numbers...

Nevertheless, even all the added up numbers are far off the 100000 mark...sadly


The Moose

[XR6Noir]

Aside from pulling numbers out of thin air, what is with the obsession with "..." after nearly every sentence...
When I read that it comes across as being deliberately vague to try and appear witty or sarcastic...or to get some agenda across...
See what I mean?

In any case Ford Aus does not survive soley because of government money.
Yet another common misconception we have thanks to the media.

Whether the Falcon is better than the Taurus is largely irrelevant when it comes to local production.

[fou_bleu]

Swedishmoose,

I dare say FoA would send the Falcon on a whirl wind adventure around the world within milliseconds have FoMoCo said they could.

It's the opposite that has happened for Holden - it's thanks to Mr Lutz (ex GM big wig) that the Commodore is sold almost worldwide (be it export or Camaro).

But I have a little feeling, though, that with the imminent reduction of the use of the Zeta platform (Camaro moving to Alpha II - smaller and lighter RWD) will create some havoc with the Commodore - it might just go FWD/AWD first or have to risk competing with the new Malibu...

[Swedishmoose]

Hi...


I am slowly getting worried.

In the first quarter 2011 FoA sold 40 % less of the Falcon compared to 2010.
The sales are basically in free fall.

If not soon more consumers decide to buy a Falcon or Territory I am pretty sure that we don't even need to ask ourselfes anymore if the Taurus will replace the Falcon and what not.

Australia and New Zealand as FoA main market is too small.
Now there are even chinese car makers entereing the Australian car market with supercheap (and not very good cars).

If FoA had decided a long time ago, that straight 6 and V8 might not be the ultimate future solution and would have introduced a bigger choice of engines (while still keeping the excellent straight six and V8's) including a Diesel for the Falcon and other options, the situation might not have been so dramatic.

And FoMoCo should have allowed FoA to sell both models overseas.
Germany could have been a marked as there are many Ford consumers who were sad to see their Ford Granada and Ford Scorpio (rear wheel drive) in the 80s and 90s.

What about South America, UK, South Africa ?

The Commodore is sold in the Middle East as a Chevrolet Caprice and is doing very well.

Don't get me wrong...i own two Ford and I am hoping that FoA will survive.

Currently i am not believing in it due to the following:

- current job cuts reflect the dropping demand for the big Fords
- no Diesel option for the Falcon (yes ...a Diesel can compete with a petrol engine....I don't want to go into that argument)

- free trade with many asian countries and the US (importing the Taurus to AUS would be cheeper than producing a version here thanks to the strong aussie dollar)

- lack of long term strategy development of FoA
- FoMoCo's one Ford strategy and the lackl of understanding that it had bombed in the past - see first Ford Mondeo)
- There are less and less consumers who are actually appreciating the benefits of a classic sedan or ute....the demand for all sorts of fancy niche cars is hurting FoA and Holden as well.


The biggest problem is that Ford wanted to announce the strategy for the next Falcon mid 2011 and I don't think that the current sales figures and job cuts will actually boost a positive outcome.

I should probably just get an FG and preserve it as the last real Aussie Ford.


And hopefully i am wrong


The Moose

[DJM83]

Id buy an SHO Taurus over an FG no worries.

[munners]

Originally Posted by DJM83

Id buy an SHO Taurus over an FG no worries.

Same here.

[Buntz]

Originally Posted by DJM83

Id buy an SHO Taurus over an FG no worries.

Originally Posted by munners

Same here.

Then do us all a favour and move to America.

[DJM83]

Originally Posted by Buntz93ED

Then do us all a favour and move to America.

Your a funny guy.
How about you go read some review and then post it as your own.

The world doesnt revolve around the falcon

[Chilliman]

Would I buy a Taurus over the Falcon?

I'd wait until the CD4-based car is out before I make that call!

[Buntz]

Originally Posted by DJM83

Your a funny guy.
How about you go read some review and then post it as your own.

The world doesnt revolve around the falcon

Tit.

[SteveJH]

The SHO weights what 250kg more then the xr6 turbo? I think i'd have to take the xr6 turbo.

Edit: 1726kg(Manual) and 1733kg(Automatic) for the xr6 turbo compared to 1,990 for the Taurus SHO.

Would be interesting how much an Ecoboost XR6T would compare in weight and performance to the current XR6T though.

[jpd80]

Taurus is too big, too heavy and even though it gets great fuel economy
it doesn't suit our market one bit. The car is physically much bigger than
our Falcon and probably has the presence that US customers expect in a
Full sized sedan, it also helps to distinguish the Taurus from the far more
popular Fusion which is around 100 mm shorter and 50mm narrower than
our Falcon.

Falcon is an in-betweener, a car with the interior space of a full size vehicle
and the external presence of a large mid sized car. If Falcon didn't have to
accommodate the long I-6, significant front overhang could be pruned,
bringing the length and weight down even further. Perhaps this is a
plan for a Future Falcon, one that shares a lot more under the skin with
the American Mustang. Maybe the key is to keep all that interior space
but wrap the external dimensions around the package much tighter...

[SteveJH]

Would probably be quite painful to try park a Taurus in a normal sized Australian carpark i'd assume.

[Ford Falcon XR6]

Originally Posted by DJM83

Your a funny guy.
How about you go read some review and then post it as your own.

The world doesnt revolve around the falcon

My world does if ford scrap the RWD falcon i'm done with ford Bar all RWD falcons

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by Ford Falcon XR6

My world does if ford scrap the RWD falcon i'm done with ford Bar all RWD falcons

We have had word that FoA is working on updates beyond SZ Terriotry abd FG II Falcon.

In case you missed it:

Originally Posted by JPFS1

The writing may look like it's written on the wall, but it's not and FordNA have given FordAUS enough lead time before the big call.

Many future programs, including updated Falcon are being worked on, and let me tell you, this whole 'One Ford' thing, well it's not really, it's more like '4-5 Ford', but that doesn't roll off the tongue as well...

and in closing, which i've not seen anything mentioned about it here, the big boys have just left, they've been here sussing out the latest...mmmmmm

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------


well let's just hope we filled them to the rim with what ever tickles their fancy and they went back happy as larry.

[Road_Warrior]

Originally Posted by SteveJH

The SHO weights what 250kg more then the xr6 turbo? I think i'd have to take the xr6 turbo.

Edit: 1726kg(Manual) and 1733kg(Automatic) for the xr6 turbo compared to 1,990 for the Taurus SHO.

Would be interesting how much an Ecoboost XR6T would compare in weight and performance to the current XR6T though.

Goddamn thats as heavy as a Territory. What were they thinking bringing a sedan to market weighing that much?! Fail.

Originally Posted by jpd80

Falcon is an in-betweener, a car with the interior space of a full size vehicle
and the external presence of a large mid sized car. If Falcon didn't have to
accommodate the long I-6, significant front overhang could be pruned,
bringing the length and weight down even further. Perhaps this is a
plan for a Future Falcon, one that shares a lot more under the skin with
the American Mustang. Maybe the key is to keep all that interior space
but wrap the external dimensions around the package much tighter...

This of course is the alternative to the local production of CD4 and importation of Mustang and derivatives. A next gen Falcon sharing all of its hard parts with Mustang. Use of corporate engines gearboxes and electrical systems is a no brainer, but I can see the next generation Mustang doing well with the FG's double wishbone front suspension and an evolved CB IRS...but the car would need an additional market to justify the business case...

[atec77]

Originally Posted by csv8

This keeps coming up..there could be more to the Taurus to replace the Falcon. as it keeps coming up???

The T doesn't sell worth a damn so I suspect it's subversion and redirect , my work car is a Ford wagon but it's a big car and the next generation of Ford daily needs to be medium sized and lighter . I bought a daily from Germany because it's economical powerful handles very well and rear wheel drive , if the next generation of Ford becomes fwd it will loose huge sales , smaller lighter and cheaper to run will be the direction for decades and ignoring that will be fatal

[XR Martin]

We'll never get the Taurus. Fact is they arnt going to start up a RHD production for a few hundred sales a month at best.
We've already got the Falcon replacement, and thats the Mondeo.

[FERG_51]

Originally Posted by jpd80

We have had word that FoA is working on updates beyond SZ Terriotry abd FG II Falcon.

In case you missed it:

jpd80 your posts allways give me hope, mate i just hope your right. I just wonder what Ford are going to do to get the buyers back, we all know that their marketing is poor and they never seem to rectify that, We all know that the Falcon is as good or better than the Commodore, but the public think Ford is on the nose. How do they fix that.

[SteveJH]

Originally Posted by Road_Warrior

Goddamn thats as heavy as a Territory. What were they thinking bringing a sedan to market weighing that much?! Fail.

Its built on a Volvo crossover SUV platform, thats why.

[FPV GTHO]

Originally Posted by XR6 Martin

We'll never get the Taurus. Fact is they arnt going to start up a RHD production for a few hundred sales a month at best.
We've already got the Falcon replacement, and thats the Mondeo.

That should read current Taurus. The next model if it goes CD4 as expected will likely have its RHD engineering piggy backed off the sister Fusion/Mondeo RHD development.

[janddbone]

Originally Posted by FPV GTHO

That should read current Taurus. The next model if it goes CD4 as expected will likely have its RHD engineering piggy backed off the sister Fusion/Mondeo RHD development.

Agreed... However here's hoping that they bite the bullet and do a GRWD. It could give at least 250,000 sales anually no worries...

[SteveJH]

Probably not very accurate, but I was curious about the difference in performance between the Taurus and a Commodore/Falcon.

So i did three laps around the nordschleife in the Taurus SHO. My times were:

1. 9:44.092
2. 9:27.313
3. 9:26.817

I then did started doing laps in the closest thing to an SS commodore I could find. This was the Pontiac G8 GXP with the 309kw LS3.

On my first lap my time was 9:25.921 and at the first split checkpoint on the second lap I was already 10 seconds ahead so I didn't bother doing any more laps.

My laps in the SHO were much smoother then my lap in the GXP as I didn't have to really worry about modulating the accelerator, whereas with the GXP, too much power in the corners would have spun me.

As all laps were done with the same (talentless ) driver they should be fairly consistant assuming the modelling of Forza 3 is relatively accurate.

Laps were done with Braking Line showing (yeah i'm a wuss), Automatic transmission (my manual shifting in games needs work and I wanted to be consistant) and ABS on. ESC and TC were turned off.

Anyway, i've had my fun for the evening, bed time.

Hmm, might have to see what I do in the W427 tomorrow possibly...

[FPV GTHO]

No real surprises there. SHO is a good performer but only on an equivalent XR level, whilst the GXP is near enough HSV level there. I remember the Coupe4 used to lap Eastern Creek faster than the VY2 Clubsport which even had 15kw more than the Coupe4, but i think it was probably also a smaller weight differential than that between a Taurus and G8 GXP.