Ford Australia wants pay freeze and two-tier wages - Page 2

ZA-289 · 13-07-2009, 09:55 PM

If you were applying for a job at ford and you knew that you wouldn't be getting as much as the previous employees,

Dont take the job! its as simple as that

Its an economic downturn people, I lost my job and had to take a crappier job on less pay but you dont see me winging!

If ford needs to do it to stay afloat then I say do it. IF you dont like it quit!!!

gtfpv · 13-07-2009, 09:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wretched

You guys have it good then.
Most companies will not pay out sick leave and most will expire it at the end of each year. Why should they pay out the sick leave? Don't you think annual leave is enough? Our company stopped pay rises years a go and only rewarded the people who did deserve it not people who think turning up to work deserves one. People wonder why manufacturing is leaving this country.

You should be lucky you have a job.

and what a wonderfull job you have. i bet your bills going up yearly dont quite relate to your job do they ?

RG · 13-07-2009, 10:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gtfpv

you live with your mum and dad dont you. ?

No need for comments like that. He makes a very good point, just ask the blokes at MaxiTrans in Ballarat. They had the option of some going part time or some losing their jobs altogether.

I'd rather a pay freeze than a redundancy or worse, your employer becoming insolvent. I've been there, you lose everything and then have to wait for the receivers to do their part and then wait for the govt. to apy your entitlements.

Wretched · 13-07-2009, 10:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gtfpv

and what a wonderfull job you have. i bet your bills going up yearly dont quite relate to your job do they ?

I actually enjoy my job thank you very much.
My pay reflects my qualifications and the hours I am required to work, of which most here would balk at.

Increasing wages isn't going to resolve the rising bills or costs of food.

gtfpv · 13-07-2009, 10:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RG

No need for comments like that. He makes a very good point, just ask the blokes at MaxiTrans in Ballarat. They had the option of some going part time or some losing their jobs altogether.

I'd rather a pay freeze than a redundancy or worse, your employer becoming insolvent. I've been there, you lose everything and then have to wait for the receivers to do their part and then wait for the govt. to apy your entitlements.

ok fair enough , i guess i havent been in that situation , it is tough times and i realise that everyone including big companies have tough times .
i am a little one sided when it comes to these issues, because it does pain me to see conditions and acheivements for young people being taken away. i cringe at the thought of younger people being able to have what people my age have . i honestly dont know how they will do it .
so i apoligise for any insults i have given here , and will limit posts in this thread as i am ONE sided on the subject and tend not to agree with other peoples views on it .
cheers .

Bossxr8 · 13-07-2009, 10:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 4Vman

I cant for the life of me see how anyone can justify getting paid out their sick leave.... no wonder cars are damn expensive if that's an example of the benefits staff get..

We all know what you think being an anti unionist.

The company implemented the sick leave pay out scheme as a way of getting people to not take sickies, in the knowledge that they would be rewarded for it, so it was win/win for both parties, as it helped lift attentance rates.

I won't bother reading any more of this thread as it will just turn into union bashing, may as well close it now.

4Vman · 13-07-2009, 10:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bossxr8

We all know what you think being an anti unionist.

The company implemented the sick leave pay out scheme as a way of getting people to not take sickies, in the knowledge that they would be rewarded for it, so it was win/win for both parties, as it helped lift attentance rates.

I won't bother reading any more of this thread as it will just turn into union bashing, may as well close it now.

That says allot about "work ethic" doesnt it..... ultimately the customers pay for it.
In not anti union at all, im just "pro" choice and "pro" democracy.. Some unions have too much power, some see balance and fairness.

RG · 13-07-2009, 10:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bossxr8

We all know what you think being an anti unionist.

The company implemented the sick leave pay out scheme as a way of getting people to not take sickies, in the knowledge that they would be rewarded for it, so it was win/win for both parties, as it helped lift attentance rates.

I won't bother reading any more of this thread as it will just turn into union bashing, may as well close it now.

No needs for comments like that either.

There is an argument for both sides, personally I don't think paying out sick leave is wise from a business point of view but I can see why some would think it is.

Could we all please stop with the insults, name calling and one dimensional posts. I would like to think that we could have an adult conversation with views expressed from multiple sides of an argument without it resulting in childish name calling and bickering.

Or am I asking too much?

MAV50L · 13-07-2009, 10:37 PM

As far as sick leave goes my work bought in an unlimited sick leave policy. If you have a certificate and you have a broken leg and are laid up for 6 weeks you get paid it all no questions asked. Come back for 3 weeks and be off a couple of days with the trots and you still get paid.
Work actually found it saved them money because leave days dropped by 60% as people didnt bother taking them because it was not like they were going to expire.

GK · 13-07-2009, 10:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RG

I would like to think that we could have an adult conversation with views expressed from multiple sides of an argument without it resulting in childish name calling and bickering.

Or am I asking too much?

No you're not.

I think that paying out sick leave doesn't make much sense. I'm a teacher and get generous sick leave entitlements. My wife is a nurse and gets a similar deal to myself. In fact it's better. Don't begrudge that thought, working with sick people all day must be a downer at times.

I have a stack of sick leave (it doesn't expire at year's end) accumulated and even though I wouldn't expect to have to use it, it's comforting to know that it's there in case it's needed.

But that's the thing. It's a real privilege afforded to me (a safety net of sorts) and I respect that. Even though it's there, I know it's not mine when I leave. I try not to take time off work, unless I'm really crook, as I don't want to let others down and know that the kids will not get as good an educational outcome when another teacher teaches my subject. I do take carer's leave sometimes when everyone in my family is crook except me. I've also taken family leave to facilitate my wife doing some training for work. I don't do it very often, but it's a great thing to be allowed to do. But to abuse such things would be wrong.

I know that people need a mental health day off here and there and don't begrudge that if it's not very often. But many people however, clearly don't understand the between rights and privelages. They also appear to not fully understand their own responsibilities.

I understand that Ford may have given this promise to pay out workers for sick leave when they leave the company, but heck, willy nilly sickies must have been a massive institution at Ford for them to do that!

I do agree with a wage freeze for an agreed time.

I do not agree with a two-tiered wage deal. I see that it would be easy for existing workers to accept it, knowing that they're okay, but it's hardly looking out for others is it?

I used to be a staunch union person, I guess as the product of a blue-collar working family, but I teach at an independent college and can actually see both sides of the argument here.

GK

Joe5619 · 13-07-2009, 10:46 PM

GTFPV: No I don’t live with my mum & dad. I’m a single man paying a 330K mortgage by myself. So, am very happy to take a pay freeze with confidence I’ll still have a job tomorrow, to pay for my mortgage over a 4% increase. Which will be useless when I get sacked.

GK · 13-07-2009, 10:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MO

MO,pulls up comfy chair and watches with flappist and no doubt 4vman will be along soon.hehehe

Classic!

However, he was already here in post #3 MO! LOL!

True he wasn't controversial in that post!

As I scrolled down, I saw the massive interest this thread has generated! LOL!

GK

gtfpv · 13-07-2009, 10:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joe5619

GTFPV: No I don’t live with my mum & dad. I’m a single man paying a 330K mortgage by myself. So, am very happy to take a pay freeze with confidence I’ll still have a job tomorrow, to pay for my mortgage over a 4% increase. Which will be useless when I get sacked.

Thanks for the reply mate . i understand your point, i too have voted for wage freezes in the passed, to keep jobs.
i am 100% against lower wages for new employees though , that stinks, and shows the companies true agenda.

flappist · 13-07-2009, 10:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GK

Classic!

However, he was already here in post #3 MO! LOL!

True he wasn't controversial in that post!

As I scrolled down, I saw the massive interest this thread has generated! LOL!

GK

MO actually knew that which is why he said he was WITH me and not WAITING for me. He, like me, knew the usual suspects would turn up and then go off like pork chops without actually comprehending almost anything already written.

GK · 13-07-2009, 11:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by flappist

MO actually knew that which is why he said he was WITH me and not WAITING for me. He, like me, knew the usual suspects would turn up and then go off like pork chops without actually comprehending almost anything already written.

I just went back and re-read MO's post. He did indeed saw he was waiting WITH you.

I'd better go into the dining room, the pork has finished cooking! LOL!

GK

Iggypoppin' · 13-07-2009, 11:14 PM

4vman I tend to swing my agreement to your argument in that sickleave payouts are not a good thing. I don't recall who said that sick leave payouts encouraged less "sickies", but...what the hell? Suppose you are one of those people, like me, who fall reasonably ill at times. I was sick for 5 days with chest infections two weeks ago. If I had cashed my sick leave, I'd have been stuffed. It's there for when you need it, if you chuck a sickie here n there well that's your own work ethic speaking volumes about you, but if you wait until you one day need them, then you won't kick yourself for cashing them every so often, or wasting them on sickie chucking. (I realize the irony of a 20 yr old down-talking sickies...I take one on the hottest day of the year to enjoy the beach. Hey, I'm only human and Australian

)

flappist · 14-07-2009, 12:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NJXR6

4vman I tend to swing my agreement to your argument in that sickleave payouts are not a good thing. I don't recall who said that sick leave payouts encouraged less "sickies", but...what the hell? Suppose you are one of those people, like me, who fall reasonably ill at times. I was sick for 5 days with chest infections two weeks ago. If I had cashed my sick leave, I'd have been stuffed. It's there for when you need it, if you chuck a sickie here n there well that's your own work ethic speaking volumes about you, but if you wait until you one day need them, then you won't kick yourself for cashing them every so often, or wasting them on sickie chucking. (I realize the irony of a 20 yr old down-talking sickies...I take one on the hottest day of the year to enjoy the beach. Hey, I'm only human and Australian

)

The biggest problem with sickies is if you waste them all with a long weekend at the beach every month, what do you do for money when you are actually sick for a few days?

buickman · 14-07-2009, 12:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 4Vman

I cant for the life of me see how anyone can justify getting paid out their sick leave.... no wonder cars are damn expensive if that's an example of the benefits staff get..

A company I once worked for paid out any sick leave not used at the end of your 12months service

Ford Australia is going about its current operations in pay freezes to make it viable as a business and also gives people work in tough times.
But you cannot please everyone until they lose their jobs and start sooking up blaming everyone else for their loss of employment if they don't like the company's vision for the future they should leave and see how tough it is out there looking for employment.

Iggypoppin' · 14-07-2009, 12:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by flappist

The biggest problem with sickies is if you waste them all with a long weekend at the beach every month, what do you do for money when you are actually sick for a few days?

I take one on the hottest day of the year, as my treat to me. Work benefits as I don't work too well on extremely hot days, so I think one day out of the working year is ok...

vztrt · 14-07-2009, 01:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 4Vman

That says allot about "work ethic" doesnt it..... ultimately the customers pay for it.

Until your working there you'll see why they would have implemented this. There is a huge amount of people that are needed and when they become short it becomes a pain when assembling the car. Which in turn has punters jumping on here saying they bought a Friday build. At the current amount of people they have there it'll make it even worse when they have a larger amount of people that are sick.

WOTDAH · 14-07-2009, 04:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 4Vman

I cant for the life of me see how anyone can justify getting paid out their sick leave.... no wonder cars are damn expensive if that's an example of the benefits staff get..

It's an incentive to not take sick days. If Ford did not offer to pay out sick leave when you leave the company (which is capped) then majority of it workforce would make sure they take their 10 days every year.
The problem with Ford is they are top heavy and like always when cost cutting is looked at it affects the blue collar worker. The moral within the company is at an all time low and by doing this it will make things a hell of a lot worse. I dont believe that a pay freeze is a viable way of cost cutting. There are much more effective ways of saving money than by cutting the pay of the people who actually make the product.

cob115 · 14-07-2009, 07:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NJXR6

I take one on the hottest day of the year, as my treat to me. Work benefits as I don't work too well on extremely hot days, so I think one day out of the working year is ok...

what about the others who still go to work on the hot days who have to work harder because your not there?im sure they hate the heat also

i own my own buisness in manufacturing and things have never ever been this bad,15years i thougt jesus every one is leaving Australia then 10years i thought cant get any worse ,if i had a crystle ball i would never of thought it would be as tuff as it is now,crazy demands for more money will send more jobs of shore ,and im not saying that because im a mean evil employer.its a fact.It costs a fortune to employ people in australia ,and our state gov seams happy to slug so many taxs on employing makes me thing why bother with the drama and head ach,so go ahead have a sicki demand more money and enjoy the jobs why there still in australia

Gobes32 · 14-07-2009, 09:14 AM

People are missing the point,

Ford workers are most likely happy to accept a temporary pay freeze,

Sick leave is/was payed out when you RETIRE.... Not when you feel like it.

The main issue is the fact that they want to put all new employees on a different wage scheme to current employees even though they are performing the exact same work.

Iggypoppin' · 14-07-2009, 10:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cob115

what about the others who still go to work on the hot days who have to work harder because your not there?im sure they hate the heat also

i own my own buisness in manufacturing and things have never ever been this bad,15years i thougt jesus every one is leaving Australia then 10years i thought cant get any worse ,if i had a crystle ball i would never of thought it would be as tuff as it is now,crazy demands for more money will send more jobs of shore ,and im not saying that because im a mean evil employer.its a fact.It costs a fortune to employ people in australia ,and our state gov seams happy to slug so many taxs on employing makes me thing why bother with the drama and head ach,so go ahead have a sicki demand more money and enjoy the jobs why there still in australia

fair point cob, but let's face it. One day is one day. I'm there rain, hail or shine, hungover sick or whatever. I only took 5 days off a fortnight ago as I couldn't breathe too well. I'm one of the better people in my work for "sickies" as I take my customary one a year-er on a day when we are usually fairly quiet and they don't push us too hard. I'm not as bad as people who wait till they have 7.4 hours saved then call in with a case of workititis. I guess I'm not perfect, but then I don't pretend to be. My day off once a year is carefully planned out, and in my work, when I'm not there for a day, I'll just work extra hard the next day, no one pitches in when I'm absent for a day. I do get what you mean though. I though, compared to the average slob, I'm pretty good when it comes to the "Aussie sickie".

Wally · 14-07-2009, 10:14 AM

I took a sickie once way back when I was 20. By lunchtime I felt so ashamed of myself I went back to work.

Contrary to what most think, business owners do like to reward their workers, but sometimes the revenue just isn't there to give rises and bonus'. Some companies find themselves in a pickle where they are going into deficit equity and forward estimates indicate the bleed will result in closure. Ford Aust is probably in this boat. It knows it needs a core workforce, but it can't rely on a rebound in the short term. It's not allowed to seek out new markets like Holden can, so it's stuck with a domestic market competing with tow majors who can defray costs of production by dumping overseas.

The Ford workforce will probably have to accept a freeze, but the problem Ford will have is as Holden increases exports of cars and engines, their workers will more than likely migrate across.

As much as corporations like to push the "team" ethos, for wage earners, the pay packet is reward. Govt has increased everything in the last couple of months, interest rates will rise, food will rise and those left behind will be closer to the breadline..... lucky to keep their jobs?

**DJR-351** · 14-07-2009, 10:42 AM

I dont have a problem with a wage freeze as long as it is applied correctly and honestly. I worked for a company many years ago that put forward implementing a wage freeze due to the climate at the time, they where very up front with the reasons why they saw this as been required, and all and sundry agreed to it.
One of the conditions tho was that the situation be regulary reviewed as to when the freeze be lifted, as it happend it went on for only 16 months before things improved and the freeze was lifted. A side note to that was the company showed its appreciation by sending all employees a Christmas hamper, which might not sound like much to some but i guess you had to be there.

As far as the Two Tier wage idea goes i would never even consider it and Ford needs to do there homework on this. I know of two companies that implemented this, and due to the animosity it created between the two wage levels, it was the companies themselves that dropped it.
They could see that moral was sliding and directly affecting production, which inturn went against what they where trying to achive, so they dropped it like the hot potato it was.

Paying out sickies...??? i did not even think this was still going on, it must be 20 years since i worked for someone who did this.....

And just for the record i am a Union member, and while i strongly agree some unions take there demands to unrealistic levels (thankfully ours is not one of them) equally there are employers out there that given the chance would do the same, and anyone who disagrees with that has got their head in the sand.

A sensible productive balance for all involved needs to be maintained, and sometimes union/employer negotiations are the best way of doing this

: .

My 2c worth.....

4Vman · 14-07-2009, 11:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vztrt

Until your working there you'll see why they would have implemented this. There is a huge amount of people that are needed and when they become short it becomes a pain when assembling the car. Which in turn has punters jumping on here saying they bought a Friday build. At the current amount of people they have there it'll make it even worse when they have a larger amount of people that are sick.

I understand the hows and whys of absenteeism being a huge issue, i just see paying sick leave out as a form of bribery...
If people are genuinely sick they shouldn't be at work, that's what sick leave is for, if they're not sick and they need a day off they should be using their annual leave in a planned manner to minimize line disruption...
It all comes down to staff work ethics...

vztrt · 14-07-2009, 12:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 4Vman

I understand the hows and whys of absenteeism being a huge issue, i just see paying sick leave out as a form of bribery...
If people are genuinely sick they shouldn't be at work, that's what sick leave is for, if they're not sick and they need a day off they should be using their annual leave in a planned manner to minimize line disruption...
It all comes down to staff work ethics...

Again, unless you WORK there you wouldn't understand.
Never said it was right was trying to give a bit of understanding.

irish2 · 14-07-2009, 05:56 PM

Sick leave should not be paid out. Most corproations do not pay out sick leave. My sick leave is paid into a fund when I leave the company I am currently working for and can be claimed at a latter date when you have no sick leave with your new employer. I think this situation would benefit both sides. The company still has to pay out the sick leave but the person needs to be sick and working to retrieve it.

Gobes32 · 14-07-2009, 05:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by irish2

Sick leave should not be paid out. Most corproations do not pay out sick leave. My sick leave is paid into a fund when I leave the company I am currently working for and can be claimed at a latter date when you have no sick leave with your new employer. I think this situation would benefit both sides. The company still has to pay out the sick leave but the person needs to be sick and working to retrieve it.

But Ford pay you out when you LEAVE, not much different to you really.....