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#31 | |||
Regular Member
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 489
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How the hell has this turned from ecoboost into $1000 taxis???
We all know 350nm is below 380nm, but the V6 will still destroy a Ba. What the hells your point? Doing it in much more comfort, with more features, whilst looking good and not having reliability issues. Stop justifying owning a Ba, no one cares. If you are after a full on race engine the alloytec can deliver. The SIDI V6 that you hate so much revs freely to 9000rpm with just a cam change. The stock internals: forged pistons, rods and crank with 6 bolt mains and oil squirters. It was also designed to be stroked out to 4.0l, ive never heard of a stroked 4.0I6 that isn't a boat anchor. Give me an ecoboost or SIDI 3.6l over the Ba I6. Can we get back on topic please lol Quote:
I see what your saying with the FG on premium, but what does the SIDI achieve on premium? A stock standard but tuned SIDI alloytec makes 247kw and around 395nm of torque from looking on a few sites. I haven't tuned my FG yet, but have a few mods and run it on premium, so 230kw/440nm to me sounds good ![]() Have ford actually been quoted in saying what the XR6T will be replaced with, and if it will get direct injection? |
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#32 | ||
Pity the fool
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Wait Awhile
Posts: 8,997
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![]() What the bloody hell is going on here?? Since when has a clapped out taxi had anything to do with EcoBoost?
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Fords I own or have owned: 1970 XW Falcon GT replica ![]() Proud to buy Australian and support Ford Australia through thick and thin |
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#33 | |||
Member
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 4,940
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Quote:
And to fromBAonwards, PLEASE stop talking about BAs!!!!!! I owned one back in the day, it was a great car, but it's not in the same league as the current cars on the market. There is more to a car than just power and torque delivery. I think you need to drive all of them for a decent amount of time instead of looking at graphs and figures. I also think a 3.0L would keep up with a BA anyway, particularly with its 6 speed auto the shorter first gear will help out. And on top of that, the 3.0L Commodore was not designed to be a performer so I don't know what your point is. Also, if you are talking about the BA I6 as a baseline comparision, it is not. It's been half a decade since they produced it and when we are comparing to a 3.0L V6, the "baseline comparison" will be Ford's economical alternative which is the Ecoboost 4 cylinder, which is the TOPIC OF THIS THREAD. |
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#34 | ||||
Getting it done.....
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Brisbane
Posts: 2,219
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Quote:
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As for the 3.0 versus 4.0 BA, while i'm loath to bring up the BA AGAIN, i am not so sure the 3.0 will beat it. 0-100 times of the 3.0 have been high 7s at best....i don't think a BA will be any different. When you consider it has much larger capacity (and would burn more) well fair enough, i'm not saying the 3.0 VE was ever designed to compete with a 4.0L motor. BUT, the BA had a 4sp FFS..... This is the point i and others have made all along with the whole SIDI debacle from holden, even before the cars were released. For example, if you buy a current FG falcon XT/G6 with 5sp, it is rated at 10.5L/100km. If you 'optoin up' the 6sp auto, that goes to 9.9-10.1L/100km. So an improvement of approx 0.6L/100km. FFS holden put in an entirely different, 'economy' tuned 3.0 engine, with DI, etc. etc and it gets THE SAME SIZE IMPROVEMENT. WTF.....ford put in a gearbox with one extra cog, tunes the engine to exploit that setup and gets the same improvement as GM-H spending millions on an entirely new engine!!! Plus Holden also put on low rolling resistance tyres, and deleted a spare tyre of any kind on the 3.0 models!!! Now we all know ADR is not worth bupkis in the real world (in general), but it does serve as a useful comparison. The example i just gave proves two things: 1. given's ford experience, clearly changing autos is a large % of the gain the SIDI models make in fuel efficiency, not the engines themselves. 2. This improvement is hardly impressive, especially when you consider ford made the same gain for a fraction of th cost The fact i can say with such confidence the EB engine will make a mockery of the 3.0 SIDI at this early stage (before any local specs have been discussed) is proof of that....
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Dynamic White 1995 EF XR6 Auto Now with: Pacemaker 4499s Lukey Catback Exhaust Chrome BA XR-style tip Airdam Mounted CAI with modified (bellmouth) airbox Trip Computer install KYB shocks Bridgestone Adrenalin tyres Coming Soon: Exhaust Overhaul..... |
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#35 | ||
Banned
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 155
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all i know is that you need to have a BASELINE to which you need to look at and then try to improve another engine basing it on an already successful player with was a Ford Falcon BA XT 4.0L DOHC VCT, BA XT I6 is a great reference model to start with.
DOHC VCT with just an oil and water pump change can spin up to 7500rpm and still generate more power and torque than any propaganda driven V6 holden ever made. Cars that need to make power at high reves are not cruises and relaxed drivers. Looks like i will be ending up with a BARRA220 after all , 220kW at just 4750 rpm, or 97% of peak 472Nm of torque from just 1500 reves. Go the Ecoboost, lets look to the future. Last edited by russellw; 19-01-2010 at 04:40 PM. Reason: Remove off topic discussion |
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#36 | |||
Moderator
![]() Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Adelaide SA
Posts: 5,584
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Quote:
Noone cares how many traffic light battles you have won. There are some seriously powerful cars owned by people on this forum, who win events at real drag strips, and I can guarantee, your stories dont impress anyone. You are probably running short on warnings.
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1965 XP Falcon Deluxe Sedan 1978 XC Falcon Wagon Rallypack 2003 BA Fairlane G220 Windsor Powah!!! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m7hT9dxD2hM |
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#37 | ||
Fossil fuel consumer
![]() Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Mod For: Pub, Bar, Sales Yard, Show 'N Shine, Photoshop, AU to BF, FG to FGX, Territory & Sports Bar
Posts: 17,038
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fromBAonwards: i understand you're passionate about your car, i love b series more than anything and i'll defend them like my sister. however bagging all the upcoming engines isn't doing anyone any good, and won't change ford's plans. The eco boost isn't my cup of tea, but i'm sure they know what they're doing (lol).
the i6 is fantastic, the boss is ok but too heavy, but they've had their prime last decade. The Coyote and ecoboost are the future, time to get used to it. howdy bastard man, ltns |
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#38 | ||
Ich bin ein auslander
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Loving the Endorphine Machine
Posts: 7,453
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Now that we are back on topic, thank god. I have to say that I think the introduction of EB technology to the falcon range is a great thing for Ford Australia. As much as we love the I6, what a great engine it is, new emission standards and public requirements in cars are setting standards that it will be difficult for the old girl to achieve, much the same as happened to the old 250. I do however hope that they continue to evolve the I6 alongside the EB4 so that we the consumers are blessed with choice.
I think many here will be surprised by the performance of the new EB4 and although I have no doubt it will not enjoy the strong following here that the I6 now does, I am sure it will be received quite well by the general car buying public. Even more promising now that we can read positive experiences from people that have driven vehicles with this new tech, I know I am looking forward to trying it out. Keep up the good work Ford.
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Growing old is compulsory, growing up is optional! |
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#39 | ||
Obsessed with wheels
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 2,298
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One thing I don't like about V6 to I6 is that after a million kays which one will still be going strong. I know it won't be the V6 but I suppose car manufactors don't care about that as you should be rich enough to trade it in every couple of years. Nuff said.
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#40 | |||
Render unto Caesar
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: ::1
Posts: 4,221
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Quote:
Have you got your findings in a report we could read?
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"Aliens might be surprised to learn that in a cosmos with limitless starlight, humans kill for energy sources buried in sand." - Neil deGrasse Tyson |
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#41 | ||
FF.Com.Au Hardcore
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 667
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A 4 cylinder turbo Falcon? Thanks, but no thanks.
Fact of the matter is that the Falcon already starts off as a heavy car. Combine that with lots of stop-start city traffic when you're constantly on and off the throttle, or the typical Aussie situation of loading our cars up with boats, caravans, 4 people, luggage etc and its a tough ask for a small engine. A 4 cylinder engine simply doesn't have sufficient anturally aspirated torque or power, so sure, whilst it might have a turbo or two to make up the shortfall, it'll be working those turbos very, very hard. I'd be concerned about long-term reliability for those not fortunate enough to be able to change their cars every 3 years. |
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#42 | ||
Fordaholic
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Brisbane
Posts: 884
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Does anyone know whether the EB-4 is a cast iron block or a fully alluminum block?
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#43 | ||
Getting it done.....
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Brisbane
Posts: 2,219
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I don't want to sound like some sort of of know it all but some of the posts in this (and other) EB 4pot threads are based on VERY mis or uninformed views.
Stuff like reliability, 'it won't have enough grunt' it will 'burn just much fuel as the I6 etc'. I can see how it would be easy to come to this conclusion based on the general views out there....i know when i was first told (long before it was in the media) of a rumour RE the I4T falcon i was very suspicious. Upon further investigation my fears were allayed.... Based on the info ford has released in the states and in europe even at this early stage i have no concerns at all. Ford will not release an engine that will just explode as soon as the warranty period is up. They also won't release an engine that is a massive dud RE performance.....not as fast as the I6 but no problem versus the 3.0 SIDI and moreover, it will feel punchy. Finally, it will burn less than just about any other large car out there. This is the entire point of the operation and why EB exists.... Remember, this is Ford we are talking about...not GM.....
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Dynamic White 1995 EF XR6 Auto Now with: Pacemaker 4499s Lukey Catback Exhaust Chrome BA XR-style tip Airdam Mounted CAI with modified (bellmouth) airbox Trip Computer install KYB shocks Bridgestone Adrenalin tyres Coming Soon: Exhaust Overhaul..... |
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#44 | ||
Noobie
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Brisbane
Posts: 525
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I can't wait. People want it all from cars these days. Power, economy, space, reliability etc.. I had a Passat 1.8litre turbo 4 cyl a few years back. It was only around 125kw and 250NM. It looked lost inside the engine bay, but ultimately it was plenty of engine for the job. I regularly filled it up with people and stuff and it cruised along just fine. The best part though was it nice and fuel efficient. The EB 2litre, with 160-180kw and 300+NM will have more than enough grunt for the job I am guessing.
There's also something to be said for having a lighter engine over the front wheels. It takes the pressure off front suspension and brakes.
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BrisVegas WS Fiesta Zetec 3dr NM Pajero TD LWB LS Focus Zetec 5dr - gone WS Fiesta Zetec 5dr - gone |
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#45 | ||
XP Coupe
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 2,098
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Umless Garrett are using some special dupadupa metals for their bearings, pistons, thrust plates and seals, chances are there are going to be some fairly expensive legacy costs to the owners who choose to keep their 2.0T after the 100k period has expired. CHRA assemblies do wear out and coke exponentially in real world driving conidtions.
My suspicions are purely based on experience with turbo jap cars over a long period. Garrett/Honeywell, who are supplying the hair dryer for the 4 pot, have had a few problems in the past, the most notable being GT17s fitted to SAABs, where the thrust pistons wore holes through the diffuser plates in response to coking. And that raises another important issue; owners of turbo cars have to be very mindful of oil changes and service, because turbochargers are very unforgiving, whereas a good old N/A donk like a V8, can be mistreated somewhat badly and still come back to play. |
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#46 | |||
Ich bin ein auslander
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Loving the Endorphine Machine
Posts: 7,453
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Quote:
I think your "typical aussie" may not be a typical as you think. I do not know of one person in my circle of friends that have a caravan, horse float or boat. The fact is the heaviest duty towing any do is a box trailer to the tip. You need to remember, we are not talking about a starfire 4 in a commodore here. This is a 4T with only about 90 nm less but also less weight than the I6 and probably max torque lower in the rev range. I think in normal use this car will be slightly slower but still no slouch. Like has been said, it being able to tow boats or race the I6 is not important, if you want that performance buy the I6. It needs to compete with other large family cars, ie 3l SIDI and be able to equal or better performance, economy and features etc. I think it may achieve this quite nicely.
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Growing old is compulsory, growing up is optional! |
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#47 | |||
Fordaholic
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Brisbane
Posts: 884
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Quote:
This fault was more likely to happen to an AWD setup more so than FWD or RWD as it was applied to all of them. |
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#48 | |||
Obsessed with wheels
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 2,298
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#49 | |||
Getting it done.....
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Brisbane
Posts: 2,219
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Quote:
the funny thing is that if you look at the torque curves for the FG I6 for example, it makes 391nm at 3250rpm, but at 2000rpm makes around 360-370nm. At 1500 it would make 350nm or so... The I4T will reduce the weight of the FG by about 50kg, or so the estimate goes (could be more). Now regardless of the final torque figure it wil probably make 330nm at 1500rpm. So for 20nm less you have to haul 50kg less weight. Rough rule of thumb i've always used is that you need a good 30nm to haul 100kg.....to 'feel' the same performance at least. So based on that at low speeds off the line the I4T will not feel any slower than teh I6 we have now..... Of course as speed builds the lack of power and lower peak torque will mean it will be alot more 'flat' and not accelerate as hard. Some drives may even complain in the higher rev range it feels slower than teh 3.0 SIDI, but 90% of the time where everyone atcually drives (down low rpm) the I4T will be a much better option.
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Dynamic White 1995 EF XR6 Auto Now with: Pacemaker 4499s Lukey Catback Exhaust Chrome BA XR-style tip Airdam Mounted CAI with modified (bellmouth) airbox Trip Computer install KYB shocks Bridgestone Adrenalin tyres Coming Soon: Exhaust Overhaul..... |
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#50 | |||
Render unto Caesar
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: ::1
Posts: 4,221
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Quote:
I couldn't care less what engines were doing 30 years ago, times have changed and so has the technology within them.
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"Aliens might be surprised to learn that in a cosmos with limitless starlight, humans kill for energy sources buried in sand." - Neil deGrasse Tyson |
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#51 | |||
Obsessed with wheels
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 2,298
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#52 | ||
Thailand Specials
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Centrefold Lounge
Posts: 49,056
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Regarding the EB I4, does Ford and Mazda still share platforms/engines? Imagine the EB I4 in a higher state of tune in the Mazda 3 MPS.
Personally, I think the 4 cylinder in the Falcon is great, it gives off that "fuel efficient" vibe to the people who don't know or take interest in cars. Except the older crowd like my Dad who sort of hesitated about the 4 cylinder in a Falcon, he said something about the Commodore had a 4 cylinder and it was the worst thing ever, but when I told him power and torque figures he liked the idea. Plus, maybe you could retrofit it in older, smaller cars? |
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#53 | |||
Render unto Caesar
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: ::1
Posts: 4,221
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Quote:
__________________
"Aliens might be surprised to learn that in a cosmos with limitless starlight, humans kill for energy sources buried in sand." - Neil deGrasse Tyson |
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#54 | |||
FF.Com.Au Hardcore
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 667
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Quote:
Yes, you can overcome some of these issues via use of higher quality metals and better engineering methods, but then the price per unit goes up which often largely negates the value equation of such an engine to begin with. Will be interesting to see how this story unfolds. |
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#55 | |||
Regular Member
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 489
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Quote:
I would be interested to read your study how you came to that conclusion, have you published it? Cheers |
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#56 | ||
Obsessed with wheels
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 2,298
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I haven't seen a VN with over 500,000km unless it's had a motor transplant and that's not a million.
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#57 | |||
Obsessed with wheels
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 2,298
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#58 | ||
XP Coupe
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 2,098
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It's a bit hard making broad observations on car engine life expectancy. Someone who has driven one Falcon year after year isn't likely to have carried out a parallel activity on a V6 anything. What is acceptable loss of performance over the time, maybe be unacceptable to someone else.
The ecoboost V6 was supposedly put through some fairly rigorous bench testing, including a WOT continuous 15 day trial. How that equates to handling on road conditions is anyone's guess, but some thought must have gone into the validity. |
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#59 | ||
Obsessed with wheels
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 2,298
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Your probably right mate, who knows the ecoboost V6 maybe the one to change the trend. But up until now they have been getting more miles out of an inline 6.
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#60 | ||
FF.Com.Au Hardcore
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 1,505
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what worries me about the whole 4 cylinder boosted thing is this : everybody knows that more load on a turbo engine increases boost pressure which in turn increases power - this is all fine and dandy but more boost equals more fuel burn, thus undoing the aura of fuel efficient 4 cylinder engine, not to mention the mechanical stresses and work the engine is doing hurtling down the highway sucking down boost and fuel to maintain speed. In comparison my soon to be traded AU XR6 W/VCT gives 750 kms to a tank on the highway regardless of load so it seems, drive it with just driver it gives 750 k to tank, load the boot completely the floor area under the kids' feet and the back seat between them and the parcel shelf, and have a passenger in it and still the car handling and fuel burn does not shift, will the ecoboost 4 cylinder be able to match this? I will be really interested to see if it can. Also if we consider an I6T and the fact that on the highway fully loaded up like the AU it runs under substantial vacuum (giving economy) until you hit a hill, at which time the vacuum is nullified and no boost pressure is applied, or atmo pressure no vac or boost - this still maintains economy, if the EB 4T runs under boost at cruise it will only get worse when loaded and when climbing hills - I am wanting to check one of these ecoboosts out to see if it "behaves" the same way in terms of load and boost. if it drives around under boost 24/7 the economy of a 4 cylinder will be somewhat undone or even nullified.
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Phantom, T56, leather and sunroof BAmk1 :yeees: Holden special vehicles - for special people ![]() |
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