Falcon is saved! - Page 2

FPV GTHO · 09-03-2012, 05:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TMC

I think the Falcon would sell well in the US, if the public could ever get hold of a US version. Big torquey six that'll blow the doors off many things.

I don't share that optimism. It seems the US is quite happy not having cars compromised attacking several markets but instead having individual models concentrating solely on a single target market. Selling well as a US model would be 20-40k sales a month like Fusion, Accord and Camry do and that would never happen. If the next platform for Taurus and Falcon favoured the RWD layout, they might still get 5k sales a month which as an export out of Broadmeadows would be great, but it's never going to happen like that and Falcon won't get a shot in the US so long as current gen Taurus is still there.

Nikked · 09-03-2012, 05:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TMC

Having similar platforms across the range makes sense and was done in the 60's and 70's anyway. Other manufacturing industries have operated like this for ages.

YES!!!

One Ford is not a completely new and revolutionary way of thinking, its a catch cry to right the wrongs over the past few years.

jpd80 · 09-03-2012, 06:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nikked

One Ford is not a completely new and revolutionary way of thinking, its a catch cry to right the wrongs over the past few years.

Unlike previous attempts to merge and globalise platform, this is a change of company philosophy
and includes all stake holders at the start and utilizes all of Ford's vast resources to make projects work.

When Alan Mulally came to Ford, he said that he saw seven Fords not one and wondered what if we leveraged all of Fords into one Ford....

TMC · 09-03-2012, 06:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FPV GTHO

I don't share that optimism. It seems the US is quite happy not having cars compromised attacking several markets but instead having individual models concentrating solely on a single target market. Selling well as a US model would be 20-40k sales a month like Fusion, Accord and Camry do and that would never happen. If the next platform for Taurus and Falcon favoured the RWD layout, they might still get 5k sales a month which as an export out of Broadmeadows would be great, but it's never going to happen like that and Falcon won't get a shot in the US so long as current gen Taurus is still there.

I'm thinking the average punter on the street, ignoring all the other competing models they have over there. The Falcon is a great car and I think the yanks would love to have a big torquey six in their carports. It won't happen though of course. Too many other things in the way for that.

Bossxr8 · 09-03-2012, 08:01 PM

Its all good in theory but when sales have dropped as low as what they have now, and will continue to sink, even putting a new top hat on a global platform will be unviable.

If Falcon was still selling 2-3000 then it might have worked, but with sales numbers that are very likely to drop and stay below 1000 a month its fate is sealed.

Just need to accept if guys, 3 figure sales numbers for Falcon = death.

Forward orders for Falcon are non existant. They can't keep the factory going on such tiny numbers.

Crazy Dazz · 10-03-2012, 12:39 AM

Em, no, no, no, and er, no.
A Falcon based on a Mustang would be the mechanical equivalent of an XF.
And yanks wouldn’t want our car for the same reason. The Americans aren’t idiots; the existing Mustang is built on a butchered DEW platform. They could have kept the upspec suspension and steering (as they did for some Lincolns built on the DEW) but they CHOSE to dumb it down, because it was cheaper to produce from existing plants and because that is what the American buyer wants.
The Falcon is a great car. Given the limited development budget and production run, it is brilliant. But there is NO market for it outside Australia, and Australian demand cannot sustain it. So as a unique Australian product, it is DEAD.
Unfortunately the limited choice of platforms for a replacement means the I6 is dead also. Lets face it, its Taurus or its nothing.
The Best we can hope for is local development of the steering and suspension, local production of the modular engine, and local assembly.

Rodge · 10-03-2012, 09:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bossxr8

Its all good in theory but when sales have dropped as low as what they have now, and will continue to sink, even putting a new top hat on a global platform will be unviable.

If Falcon was still selling 2-3000 then it might have worked, but with sales numbers that are very likely to drop and stay below 1000 a month its fate is sealed.

Just need to accept if guys, 3 figure sales numbers for Falcon = death.

Forward orders for Falcon are non existant. They can't keep the factory going on such tiny numbers.

I really hope your wrong.
Why have sales numbers for the last couple of months been so pathetic ?
How is it that the Commordore outsold the FG Falcon by nearly 3:1 in February despite the FG2 model refresh ? It can't be that the public are moving away from large cars alltogether as the Commodore sold nearly 3000 last month. WTF are they doing so right that Ford are doing so wrong ?
Be interested in your thoughts.
Ford seem to be making no effort whatsoever to market the FG2, (havn't seen a single add on it) yet seen countless advertisements for the new Focus, so lack of marketing is obviously a big part of the answer but what other factors are at play here, if any ?

gtfpv · 10-03-2012, 09:39 AM

yeah i too would like to know the answer to this one . we here see a superior car in a falcon , over a commadore . so what is holden doing better than ford to sell 3 times more commadores . ?

jpd80 · 10-03-2012, 09:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rodge

I really hope your wrong.
Why have sales numbers for the last couple of months been so pathetic ?
How is it that the Commordore outsold the FG Falcon by nearly 3:1 in February despite the FG2 model refresh ? It can't be that the public are moving away from large cars alltogether as the Commodore sold nearly 3000 last month. WTF are they doing so right that Ford are doing so wrong ?
Be interested in your thoughts.
Ford seem to be making no effort whatsoever to market the FG2, (havn't seen a single add on it) yet seen countless advertisements for the new Focus, so lack of marketing is obviously a big part of the answer but what other factors are at play here, if any ?

The table below Shows a basic trend that has been happening for about ten years
and underscores why Ford and Holden cannot rely on big cars to bring in mass sales.
While Territory is a good start, Ford has no volume supply of good small and mid SUVs,
something that's being changed next year with all new EcoSport, Kuga and hopefully T6 Everest.

This is less about what's wrong with big cars and more about glaring product gaps elsewhere..

Rodge · 10-03-2012, 10:15 AM

Thanks mate and appreciate you posting that again. No question there's a trend steadily away from large sedans and your other points are also well made but why are Commordore selling relativly well and the FG Falcon not, despite the model refresh and run-out deals on FG1...thoughts ?

**DJR-351** · 10-03-2012, 10:28 AM

~~Hy Brazil~~ Falcon....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d8IBnfkcrsM

Nikked · 10-03-2012, 10:32 AM

The thing is a SUV is more practical then a Large Sedan for most, espicially if they are like a Terri or Kluga. Big wagon storage, comfortable hight for putting kids in seats etc...but still drives like a sedan.

The territory was a stroke of genious from FoA, one that head office should have taken advantage of earlier.

jpd80 · 10-03-2012, 10:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rodge

Thanks mate and appreciate you posting that again. No question there's a trend steadily away from large sedans and your other points are also well made but why are Commordore selling relativly well and the FG Falcon not, despite the model refresh and run-out deals on FG1...thoughts ?

Without being harsh to FoA, their key strategy was going after fleet orders with EcoLPI and petrol XR6.
Apart from newspaper advertising, FGII release has been low key to say the least, Territory does amazingly well regardless.

Holden on the other hand has been having a huge sales drive with heavily discounted Omega specials
as well as SV6 and SS amongst other things. To me they pumped sales to get a stockpile of cars moved.
The big question is whether Holden has to stay with discounting to keep those sales or whether we've seen a big
pull forward with dealer registered demo vehicles...I don't know, it's something you can only determine by future sales..

Rodge · 10-03-2012, 10:55 AM

I guess if you serve up a really mediocre product, heavily discounted and marketed with their being apparently such an obsession amoungst the public with saving money on fuel, the sidi thing and 8.9L/100 km's and all, people are dumb enough to buy into that B.S. and think they're on to a winner...

All this speculation on the imminent death of the Falcon is something i'm finding very, very depressing...I can't help thinking if Ford wanted to get behind the Falcon with a decent quantity of good positive marketing they allready would have.

jpd80 · 10-03-2012, 12:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rodge

I guess if you serve up a really mediocre product, heavily discounted and marketed with their being apparently such an obsession amoungst the public with saving money on fuel, the sidi thing and 8.9L/100 km's and all, people are dumb enough to buy into that B.S. and think they're on to a winner...

All this speculation on the imminent death of the Falcon is something i'm finding very, very depressing...I can't help thinking if Ford wanted to get behind the Falcon with a decent quantity of good positive marketing they allready would have.

It's the annual "Falcon is dead jamboree" that happens for the first six months of the year
followed by six months of Holden hyped export plans and then start all over again..

Mulally said, "we love the Falcon.." and says to me that Ford won't give it up until the market does..

**Elks** · 10-03-2012, 04:23 PM

Falcon as we know is gone, that doesn't mean falcon is gone. Afterall the Kingswood became the Commodore

The FG faclon runs a unique body, suspension, steering, engine, gearbox and diff. FoA have engineered a truly wonderful car bumper to bumper on a nickel & dime budget. That can't continue.

The driveline must fall in line with global production, Eco Bost 4 & 6, plus Coyote for the performance end. All the amazingly expensive to engineer parts, swithes, locks, sensors need to be global parts too. As has been said earlier in this thread, just like the 60's & 70's.

The issue is if there is a "global" platform that will suit and enough remaining voloumes to to make the $$ work. Ecoboost will be a sales boost, they are amazingly frugal, but is it enough? I dont know.

Bossxr8 · 10-03-2012, 09:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rodge

I really hope your wrong.
Why have sales numbers for the last couple of months been so pathetic ?
How is it that the Commordore outsold the FG Falcon by nearly 3:1 in February despite the FG2 model refresh ? It can't be that the public are moving away from large cars alltogether as the Commodore sold nearly 3000 last month. WTF are they doing so right that Ford are doing so wrong ?
Be interested in your thoughts.
Ford seem to be making no effort whatsoever to market the FG2, (havn't seen a single add on it) yet seen countless advertisements for the new Focus, so lack of marketing is obviously a big part of the answer but what other factors are at play here, if any ?

You just need to remember that Commodore sales are always shrinking by the month too, they have dropped to precarious numbers for them because they rely on volume levels much higher than Ford do.

I think the main difference in sales has been the Holden wagon, they sell quite a lot of them, but in theory the Territory is Fords stationwagon so if you combine Falcon and Territory you'd be pretty close to even.

Then Holden have the V8 which Ford has no answer for, they only have an answer to HSV's V8 with the FPV range.

People have moved away from large cars into SUV's and dual cab utes, while some have downsized. Simple as that really. They have so much more choice than they used too.

Fords pathetic efforts to sell and market the Falcon, and their inability to fend off the negative media reports and poor public sentiment have just added fuel to the downturn.

TMC · 10-03-2012, 11:07 PM

Would love to buy one of the last GE6T especially if it was EcoLPi. Can't afford it though. They are an awesome car. But it takes more than an awesome product to keep a company afloat. I know from experience that painful truth.

I will always have a soft spot for the Falcon.

b0son · 11-03-2012, 01:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jpd80

In fact the exact opposite is happening, by embracing the rest of the Ford business, FoA can tap into
a lot more architecture and engineering modules not available to them when developing FG in 2004-08...

True, but with sales continuing to slide, what level of differentiation will there be to the volume-selling version? We may well end up with a RHD version of whatever sells in the US, with nothing more than new bumpers.

b0son · 11-03-2012, 01:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rodge

Ford seem to be making no effort whatsoever to market the FG2, (havn't seen a single add on it) yet seen countless advertisements for the new Focus, so lack of marketing is obviously a big part of the answer but what other factors are at play here, if any ?

What's the model breakdown of Commodore sales? I see a hell of a lot of sportswagons on the road nowadays, and SS commodores. Ford have walked from both of those markets. That would surely cost a few hundred units per month (if not more)?

b0son · 11-03-2012, 01:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jpd80

Ford won't give it up until the market does..

Next months VFACTS will answer that.

January was dismal, they blamed hail damage. That would surely have meant a significant rebound in Feb as the damaged stock was replaced. The rebound was limp at best.

jpd80 · 11-03-2012, 09:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by b0son

True, but with sales continuing to slide, what level of differentiation will there be to the volume-selling version? We may well end up with a RHD version of whatever sells in the US, with nothing more than new bumpers.

Having no replacement for Falcon would be more concerning than being given a workable solution.
Ford is locked into Falcon until at least 2014, there's nothing readily available to replace it.

Edit.....

Guys, take a breath we're just into March and some of you are seeing the worst for Falcon.
Sales will come better, Ford believe that and it's their money to spend proving that call.

Let's not be laying the burial sheet over Falcon just yet.....

Territory sales are positive and Ford should be pushing them to add more production and if the market
now prefers Territory over Falcon, then give buyers what they want, an affordable large SUV.

Joe5619 · 11-03-2012, 09:43 AM

Jpd80, I've be a little more convinced if Ford did actually put its money where its month is (or isn't).. Not one single TV add for Falcon FGII. Nothing. Now I know TV advertising isn't the only form of advertising, but it should play an important part of a complete media campaign. All they have given us, as a few half page paper adds (are they even still running those) & an e-mail 3 months after it is release!! Hardly sounds like a company trying to save Falcon?

prydey · 11-03-2012, 10:50 AM

with such a large % of sales going to fleets, it is more than likely the fleet sales that have tanked rather than the private buyer. having no lpg car available for a few months forced some fleets to look elsewhere and no doubt ford are trying hard to win these back, but it doesn't happen overnight. any fleets that went elsewhere locked themselves in to a 1, 2 or 3 yr deal so they can't just run back as soon as a lpg falcon becomes available again. also, many fleets, esp govt, are getting stricter criteria regarding what cars they can purchase and one of these criteria is 4cyl only. when ecoboost comes on line they will once again be eligible to more agencies.

things take time. i realise time is at a premium but i believe ford are not expecting things to happen in 1 or 2 months. growth will be gradual. i can guarantee they don't analyse sales by the month like they are on here.

Mullaly has also stated that he wants to have a car in the large segment, and as it stands, they don't really have a car 100% suitable to do that job, so no point killing off falcon just yet.

come 2014 i think we can revisit a few threads on here and give one of these

csv8 · 11-03-2012, 10:53 AM

Prydey...quote "Mullaly has also stated that he wants to have a car in the large segment, and as it stands, they don't really have a car 100% suitable to do that job, so no point killing off falcon just yet." TAURUS !!!!!

prydey · 11-03-2012, 11:03 AM

current taurus is bigger than falcon (and smaller interior i think). its also the 'current' model and falcon is still alive. no point looking at 'current' models. have to look to next gen. i believe next gen falcon and next gen taurus could have similar styling cues.

Brazen · 11-03-2012, 11:56 AM

I thought he said a large car wasn't as necessary as it used to be due to declining sales worldwide - meaning Mondeo will probably be as big as it gets? But the Mondeo is big anyway I suppose.

Nikked · 11-03-2012, 01:06 PM

Remember the XF was the last ever falcon, to be replace by a FWD 626 based product...

Wheels said so.

jpd80 · 11-03-2012, 01:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by prydey

current taurus is bigger than falcon (and smaller interior i think). its also the 'current' model and falcon is still alive. no point looking at 'current' models. have to look to next gen. i believe next gen falcon and next gen taurus could have similar styling cues.

Fairlane sized with a "cockpit" feel to the interior.
Actually new Fusion rivals it on Hip, shoulder and leg room, so apart from a buyers who insist on
that big car feel, Taurus could be replaced by Fusion in retail sales, that's what's happening
and why FNA is asking the very same questions as FoA in having its SUV tagged to its big car.

We moan about 1100 Falcon sedan sales in a 20 million country,
imagine USA with 6,700 Taurus in a country of +300 million
It's only the linkage to their SUV cousins that's saving both of them...

Dr Smith · 11-03-2012, 02:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jpd80

Fairlane sized with a "cockpit" feel to the interior.
Actually new Fusion rivals it on Hip, shoulder and leg room, so apart from a buyers who insist on
that big car feel, Taurus could be replaced by Fusion in retail sales, that's what's happening
and why FNA is asking the very same questions as FoA in having its SUV tagged to its big car.

We moan about 1100 Falcon sedan sales in a 20 million country,
imagine USA with 6,700 Taurus in a country of +300 million
It's only the linkage to their SUV cousins that's saving both of them...

Do you think Ford US needs a Taurus? I think they sold 74,000 last year which might sound a lot however if, on a per cap basis it matched Falcon they should have sold around 380,000!!! The Crown Vic only sold slightly less, lol. What does Ford do with rwd Falcon, awd/rwd Territory, fwd/awd Taurus, and some other premium rwd car?