No Money in Panel Beating? In Perth?

[Crazy Dazz]

That's the other thing, despite the need to invest more and more in equipment and training, the dodgieness is getting worse.
Panel BEATING, what's that? If there's a dent just throw bog at it. I looked at a wagon that had a shallow impact to most of the rear quarter panel, and instead of replacing the panel or attempting to straighten it, they had bogged the whole panel and it was now cracking off in huge sheets.

We had a headlight replaced as part of a small front end repair. Now that headlight (dodgy after-market) is yellow whilst the original one still looks good.

What's the use of a 5 year corrosion warranty when dodgy repairs are done on your new car.

I would generally shy away from insurers I consider disreputable. Problem is that it IS the biggest, most reputable, most established insurers who have established repair networks and are able to screw down prices.

I can remember many years ago we were insured with a company that had no visible presence in WA, but the good thing was that I could take the car to two shops of my choice, get two quotes, and they just accepted the lowest quote.

I actually like the Concept that Jac Nasser tried to introduce. Buy your car from Ford, Finance and insure your car through Ford, get your car repaired by Ford using genuine Ford parts. Probably would have been too expensive though.

[BadMax]

Most insurers like to use 'parallel parts'. These may appear to be the genuine article, but even the importers of these parts can not guarantee they are the genuine article.

Each and every single vehicle manufacturer will void your warranty to a degree if the parts fitted are not purchased through a dealer network. Pop a motor under warranty with a non genuine radiator...good luck with your warranty claim!

Vehicles fitted with non genuine or parallel parts may contravene ADR's and may also adversely effect the crash rating of the vehicle and it's SRS reaction.

http://www.motoring.com.au/news/merc...rs-hands-43223

http://www.news.com.au/technology/de...-1226936325505

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yKKa1HrnBJg

[buickman]

In the 1st article there is a statement from an insurance company and as far as I know Insurance companies require the use of genuine parts either new or good second hand. But older cars can be challenging specially Imports to find genuine parts for a 10 year old plus car that is well out of warranty. The shops that specialise in repairing Euro premium cars can quote over inflated prices but even if you have your preferred repairer in your policy and the quote is excessive you better read your PDS because they can get the car quoted my other repair shops.

[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by Nikked

Yep, and waste money on obscene ideas, like having 3 field assessors do a spot check on a car, or during hail storms renting out huge shed's and paying all the travel and accommodation expenses for the DPR's blokes to blow in and out...more often then not smashing through work doing below average work (note, this isn't about all PDR blokes being shoddy, just the rush jobs done in the 'dent sheds') that shops are left to fix anyway...


Own a 5 month old car? Smashed the front end? You'll get aftermarket air core's, radiators and intercoolers...and maybe genuine coolant...

Because they said to use them...

nothing like a non-gen radiator in your brand new car...with less cooling tubes etc...how does that effect warranty?

Good thing I sent the engine under my firewall, set off all the air bags and busted up the passenger side chassis rail big time.

Fix that one ya bastards.

Damo 1
Melbourne panel shops 1
Ford 1
AAMI 0

[Crazy Dazz]

Originally Posted by buickman

as far as I know Insurance companies require the use of genuine parts

[BadMax]

You beat me to it Dazz! I suggest you all read your PDS', look out for ambiguous sentences!

[superyob]

Interesting read...

[Ken Dunn]

Sadly the insurance companies,i.e. share holders,now dictate what rates are applicable regarding repair and replace prices payed to repairers.As a share holder, they will demand return on their holding, share price.The poor old shop owner is being screwed even further.The margins just are not there now.If we want to pay a realistic insurance premium as to what a repairer needs to keep a quality repair versus their operating overheads,we will have to pay more.Personally, I would pay more to an insurance company to keep the repair industry and people employed,than trying to further turn the screw on current repairers and control the industry.
Next step will be the insurance companies will put your damaged car on a boat and it will be repaired off shore, and returned good as new within two weeks.
Cheers

[BadMax]

No need to send them off shore for unskilled labour, it's already happening here.

[SVR73]

I've been watching the crash repair industry closely via Australasian Paint and Panel magazine who have published some of my technical articles on machine polishing

I have a great relationship with a superb (highest quality, private customers mainly, very few insurance jobs) shop that sends polishing/detailing work my way all the time as I have the same mentality as them, longest lasting, highest quality work and no dealership work or production style work at all.

That crash shop are often fixing other crash shops shonky or poorly done insurance work.

The smart shops are popping up all over the place and after visiting the training facility here in South Oz of the crash industry, I'm glad I'm not in the industry, it's miles behind the detailing industry in terms of polishing technology (it's the smallest thing they do so that could be why) and many just don't want to change their ways.

suncorp owns 90% of the capital smart repairs chain too.

I always stay on the leading edge and lead the way within my industry and unless you do that in the crash or any industry, you will be totally left behind.

unfortunately the world is becoming a throw away, convenience and speed based society.

[buickman]

Suncorp’s PDS on choosing who repairs your car if you decide on taking preferred repair policy out.
Attachment 83963

[2011G6E]

Probably because panel "beaters" have mostly become panel "bolters" these days...

[BadMax]

Allegedly one of the Qplus shops in NSW in the space of 11 months, purchased 30 vehicles which had sub standard repairs conducted by them.

Allegedly, Suncorp budgeted 5 million dollars last year for re-work and it blew out to 15 millions dollars and they still churn a profit!

[ebxr8240]

80% of cars on road are sub $25k and it's easier to buy another one these days .. A four year old car doesn't leave much $$..

[Nikked]

Keep in mind, with the tighter laws regarding written-off vehicles, the price for wrecks has dropped. Insurance companies no longer get as much as what they used to for the wrecks, hence in some cases, will repair vehicles that would normally be a financial write-off...

[BadMax]

This is correct. I know of one insurer that will repair vehicles close to approximately 100% of it's value. They do this as the money recovered from the wreck being sold is allocated to another cost centre within the insurer so reflects badly on them.
I also know of at least one vehicle which I believe should have been a statutory write of was in fact repaired and returned to the customer.

[Crazy Dazz]

Originally Posted by BadMax

This is correct. I know of one insurer that will repair vehicles close to approximately 100% of it's value. They do this as the money recovered from the wreck being sold is allocated to another cost centre within the insurer so reflects badly on them.
I also know of at least one vehicle which I believe should have been a statutory write of was in fact repaired and returned to the customer.

This is true FINANCIALLY, but keep in mind that with labour and rentals the cost of any given repair continues to climb. I am amazed at the cars I see at auction. It's really sad. Nice Falcons written-off for nothing more than a few scratches. Our AU3, in very nice nick, with LPG, was written off for a minor scrape and a dented door.

[BadMax]

Rental vehicles, towing and some other aspects are not factored in as repair costs.

[castellan]

Originally Posted by ozpacman

I completed my apprenticeship in the noble craft of panel beating in 1980. Did a year or two as a tradesman and made the decision back then that it was not something that I could see myself doing for the next 40 or 50 years.

Even in those days the insurance companies were screwing the shops for every dollar. Unfortunately for the operators it's an industry that is totally controlled by insurance companies because they provide the work. They essentially dictate to operators how much they are prepared to pay for a job to be done so it becomes a matter of take it or leave it. A shop needs to keep the work rolling through the doors to survive so they have no option but to take it on for the money that's offered.

I can't think of any other trade that is bent over and dictated to like the crash repair industry. Imagine telling a mechanic how much you will pay him to rebuild your engine, or the plumber how much you're prepared to pay him to fix a broken pipe in your house?

I have the utmost respect for those who are prepared to persist in the industry. I suspect that for a lot of them it's a case of panel beating being all they know and what they're good at doing so they continue.

Go down to your local paint supply company and see how much a few litres of primer/surfacer, some 2 pack colour, hardener and reducer etc cost you - you'll be gobsmacked!

I'm amazed that shops can turn out good quality work when you consider what they're paid and what their overheads must be in this day and age.

I'm proud to have 'done my time' and have never regretted it for a moment, because I believe that completing an apprenticeship in any trade provides a young person with life skills and experience that will serve him or her well beyond the boundaries of the trade to which they're indentured.

Russ.

Same thing in QLD with the building industry, just forget even trying to be a tradesman nowadays as you are better off being just a labourer on a wage.
From what I can see is that it's mainly the idiots who do ok because they do bad workmanship cutting corners. Plumbers and sparky can do ok but not all now as more fools are getting into that as well.

I have done my time and regretted it the hole time, I have seen my Dad cop it time after time, it's been a bloody nightmare and I would not wish what he went through on anyone.

I know many people who have never worked there whole life and never had a real care in the world as they have a roof over there head with many kids and no money problems as that bloke from the government he looks after them hey ! I even get into an argument with them lot at times and they informed me of their rights and that includes they can have as many kids they want, but can I ?

I just work for another now but he will go bankrupt as it's only a matter of time he has already had the tax man come to try destroy him, but he went the option of extending his house loan and that adds 5 more years to paying it off, so he may be 68 yo and just maybe own the dumpy little s box.

[buickman]

Originally Posted by castellan

Same thing in QLD with the building industry, just forget even trying to be a tradesman nowadays as you are better off being just a labourer on a wage.
From what I can see is that it's mainly the idiots who do ok because they do bad workmanship cutting corners. Plumbers and sparky can do ok but not all now as more fools are getting into that as well.

I have done my time and regretted it the hole time, I have seen my Dad cop it time after time, it's been a bloody nightmare and I would not wish what he went through on anyone.

I know many people who have never worked there whole life and never had a real care in the world as they have a roof over there head with many kids and no money problems as that bloke from the government he looks after them hey ! I even get into an argument with them lot at times and they informed me of their rights and that includes they can have as many kids they want, but can I ?

I just work for another now but he will go bankrupt as it's only a matter of time he has already had the tax man come to try destroy him, but he went the option of extending his house loan and that adds 5 more years to paying it off, so he may be 68 yo and just maybe own the dumpy little s box.

They just get overseas employees to fill the positions in the trades as young workers can get better wages in retail and logistics. Cleaner work and most likely better conditions who wants to be pulling apart a wet muddy wreck in cold weather on apprentice wages then when you are a tradesman and decide to start a business finding enthusiast trustworthy workers for the business is a challenge. Then trying to get paid for your work on time by insurance companies on top of whinging clients who needs the headache. It annoys me as well that a small minority of fit people that can work choose to freeload on the Tax payer.

[Crazy Dazz]

Originally Posted by castellan

Same thing in QLD with the building industry, just forget even trying to be a tradesman nowadays as you are better off being just a labourer on a wage.
From what I can see is that it's mainly the idiots who do ok because they do bad workmanship cutting corners. Plumbers and sparky can do ok but not all now as more fools are getting into that as well.

I have done my time and regretted it the hole time, I have seen my Dad cop it time after time, it's been a bloody nightmare and I would not wish what he went through on anyone.

I know many people who have never worked there whole life and never had a real care in the world as they have a roof over there head with many kids and no money problems as that bloke from the government he looks after them hey ! I even get into an argument with them lot at times and they informed me of their rights and that includes they can have as many kids they want, but can I ?

I just work for another now but he will go bankrupt as it's only a matter of time he has already had the tax man come to try destroy him, but he went the option of extending his house loan and that adds 5 more years to paying it off, so he may be 68 yo and just maybe own the dumpy little s box.

My Cousin wanted to build houses, so he did his apprenticeship as a bricklayer, did all the TAFE course and became a registered builder. He got sick of trying to build quality homes for ungrateful clients who wanted the same low prices that dodgy brothers package homes offered. So he went back to just bricklaying, but was choosy about who he worked for, but in the end its the same problem. Nobody wants to pay for quality, they prefer to pay a few cents less to any yobbo that claims they can throw bricks together with mortar held together by spit.

[BadMax]

Unfortunately, even sub standard trades people in the panel industry still command high wages. When I was finishing up my apprenticeship as a spray painter in the mid 90's, my teachers then could see the writing on the wall and told me that we would be the last of the big groups.

I've kept contact with many of them, taught students at TAFE and also supplied them with stock over the years and guess what, they were right! Numbers are dwindling and many of those going through have the attitude of it's just a job with very little pride for it.

[Shonky.]

Surely insurance customers play a hand in all this?

I don't know how many threads I see on the forum that ask "cheapest insurance for a insert name of car here"

Little or no regard is given to any other feature of the policy. People treat it like a homogenous commodity shopping only on price and then wonder why they get service that reflects this.

And we are supposedly car enthusiasts. So imagine how little of a phuk average joe cares about true choice of repairer (as opposed to choosing from the pool of cut price repairers budget insurers offer) and the like. Price is all that matters to 90% of insurance customers

[Itsme]

Originally Posted by Shonky.

Surely insurance customers play a hand in all this?

I don't know how many threads I see on the forum that ask "cheapest insurance for a insert name of car here"

Little or no regard is given to any other feature of the policy. People treat it like a homogenous commodity shopping only on price and then wonder why they get service that reflects this.

And we are supposedly car enthusiasts. So imagine how little of a phuk average joe cares about true choice of repairer (as opposed to choosing from the pool of cut price repairers budget insurers offer) and the like. Price is all that matters to 90% of insurance customers

How would Joe average know the difference between quality & budget repairers?

[BadMax]

Shonky is on the money. 90% of people shopping for insurance seek the cheapest alternative available. It's not until such time they lodge a claim, they discover why their premium is the cheapest, more often than not making you do their running around!

More consumers are becoming more savvy in regards to repairs. Unfortunately watching shows like ACA give too many people the impression they actually know what they are talking about. Often you have people trying to pick fault, little do they understand a brand new car is far from perfect but the assumption that it's new, it's perfect.

[Itsme]

Originally Posted by BadMax

Shonky is on the money. 90% of people shopping for insurance seek the cheapest alternative available. It's not until such time they lodge a claim, they discover why their premium is the cheapest, more often than not making you do their running around!

More consumers are becoming more savvy in regards to repairs. Unfortunately watching shows like ACA give too many people the impression they actually know what they are talking about. Often you have people trying to pick fault, little do they understand a brand new car is far from perfect but the assumption that it's new, it's perfect.

You cannot blame the Insurance companies alone for substandard repair work, the Panel beating businesses themselves are also to blame.

[Mesa]

Originally Posted by BadMax

Shonky is on the money. 90% of people shopping for insurance seek the cheapest alternative available. It's not until such time they lodge a claim, they discover why their premium is the cheapest, more often than not making you do their running around!

More consumers are becoming more savvy in regards to repairs. Unfortunately watching shows like ACA give too many people the impression they actually know what they are talking about. Often you have people trying to pick fault, little do they understand a brand new car is far from perfect but the assumption that it's new, it's perfect.

No different to the people who get the front end repaired after an accident only to bitterly complain to the repairer/ insurance company/ consumer affairs that the scratch on the rear bar wasn't fixed 'while they were at it'. There seems to be the assumption that once the cars in a panel shop for nominated repairs, it'll be returned to you factory fresh with all blemishes fixed.

[BadMax]

Originally Posted by trublu

You cannot blame the Insurance companies alone for substandard repair work, the Panel beating businesses themselves are also to blame.

There are substandard repairers much like any industry. You also need to realise the panel repair industry is one of few that is so heavily dictated too.
This may be inappropriate, but how much is your gross hourly wage? Do you realise some insurers are still running a $23 an hour? Still paying the same rate to dismantle an XF door as an FG door.

A Panel shop can write a 100% accurate and legitimate quote for repairs, but an assessor needs to justify their existence in their role. I have seem adjustments made for as little a 65 cents!

Insurance companies rarely care about you or your car, they are solely their to provide shareholders with returns and massive ones at that.

Do you know how many times I've heard; can't just pop that out, can't you just suck it out, while you have paint can you do xyz, why don't you work weekends?

[Crazy Dazz]

Originally Posted by trublu

You cannot blame the Insurance companies alone for substandard repair work, the Panel beating businesses themselves are also to blame.

Yes, just like those evil children are responsible for the sex trade in Thailand, nothing to do with those poor unfairly maligned paedophiles.

Insurance companies are 100% at fault. THEY have the choice to either insist on quality repairs, or accept ***** work and shonky practises for the low prices they demand.

[Nikked]

Originally Posted by trublu

You cannot blame the Insurance companies alone for substandard repair work, the Panel beating businesses themselves are also to blame.

You pay for what you get, the trade gets screwed, workers get screwed, just so the insurance company can make huge profit. If a shop that does substandard repairs gets the job, then you'll get substandard repairs...that's if they force you to get 2 quotes (that's being phased out by some though)


Think of it as this:

You pay me $20 a year to protect you from falling hungry, one day, you feel hungry, so you go to two sandwich bars to see who has the cheapest BLT. I (the assessor) see shop 1 charges $7 for a BLT, shop 2 charges $5.50.

Shop 1:
Fresh backed that day bread, organic lettuce, fresh tomato and freshly shaved bacon.

Shop 2:
Yesterdays bread, wilted lettuce, canned tomato and frozen bacon.

I tell shop 2, to adjust the bread to fresh, while i cut the organic lettuce in shop 1.

Shop 1 charged a higher labour time for prep anyway, so shop 2 still wins the job.

You pay me the $4 excess and I give you your sandwich with its fresh bread for $5.70, but you still get crap lettuce and canned tomato and frozen bacon.

Out of that $20 a year you pay, I've only lost $1.70 by the time you pay excess...if I went with shop 1, I would have lost $3...