Buyback hypothetical

[gtfpv]

Originally Posted by GT0132

What this bloke says is right on the nail........If there is only one honest, no BS post on these forums in the past 2 years I've been on here then this has gotta be it.

dont quote me . BUT. cars have been being designed as everything else . these days for a " LIFESPAN" i think 10 years is about the right number . as thats when a car isdeemed vintage , and parts become redundant.
with or without flappist's thread. this is becoming reality .
and further more . a little inside info suggests that the BA. was the 1st falcon designed accordingly.
this may explain why my EL futura just keeps going and going and going and going . whilst the GT . has had a paint respray on the front bumper after 18 months . at a warranty cost of 6K. timing chain tensioners, upgraded , because they were crap, and wouldnt last the warranty period! the ICC SHYTE ITSELF AND NEED A RECO'D CD STACKER. ( THAT IS ONE WITH THE ICC) - you wouldnt read about it . and a broken bonnet cable handle mount ( plastic molded dash bracket- ( not replacable) and broken plastic fuel cap release . that i repaired . this is on a car treated like part of the family . with less than 60 000 lady driven kms.
i think with or without a buy back scheme . cars are now being designed for A 10 year lifespan , and it would be in our best interest to get onboard . we still havent seen the old age electrical problems and hardware failures yet . and this is with a new concept in design
WAIT UNTIL THEY PERFECT IT . EURO emmissions updating only needs slight modifying to make previous standards illegal too . ( imagine that)

I ALSO TICKED GOOD IDEA BUT NEEDS MORE THOUGHT .

[Nikked]

Originally Posted by flappist

The down side is that car collectors will have to be fair dinkum not doof doofs as they will not be allowed to drive their half finished mismatched wheeled, primer painted, dodgey engined, sort of GT/HSV/VL turbo replica to maccas every night.

So is this the answer to fixing the car industry and lowering the road toll in one hit? Or is it more important that VL turbos and EAs are available to the backward cap brigade?

Your idea fails in some ways because of silly Generalisations. There are people you genuinely wan't to spend time on cars no matter what vintage/era they are from.

Imagine if this rule was already implemented. And the Classic/collectable cars for XR-XY's were only GT's and faimonts, for example, now you'll have no cheap falcon 500's for poeple to stripdown and practice there craft on.

Wouldn't this also effect resale in a bad way?

[HSV587]

Originally Posted by Nikked

Your idea fails in some ways because of silly Generalisations. There are people you genuinely wan't to spend time on cars no matter what vintage/era they are from.

Imagine if this rule was already implemented. And the Classic/collectable cars for XR-XY's were only GT's and faimonts, for example, now you'll have no cheap falcon 500's for poeple to stripdown and practice there craft on.

Wouldn't this also effect resale in a bad way?

Its quite amazing seeing people agree with this idea,especially when a lot of the people agreeing have some early girl cars as well.....bet they would be kicking and screaming when they cant get their X series registered because its not a GT/GS......

[Donny]

Somthing else I forgot to mention and missed the Edit window.

We as a society are slowly and subtely having all our rights and freedoms taken away from us by laws for this n that by people in power and big businesses who can influence pollies etc.

I'v made lots of comments about people turning into sheep and following things just because someone else says so etc. We need to stand up and make positive changes, not a bunch more rules.
Australia is one of the most over governed countries in the world, and the amount of rules, laws and taxes etc we are forced to bear are still spiralling out of control.
And these sort of ideas are good in principal, but not so good when you get into the nitty gritty of them.

I have no problems with tidying up our environment, with increasing driver safety and awareness, with improving the quality and safety of mainstream cars on our roads etc, but they MUST be well thought out ideas, not knee jerk ideas like this one.

This idea is one way to 'sort of' work out a solution, but not the only one.
This is the solution that would make the Government LOOK like their doing somthing, or LOOK like they want to do somthing, but dont really acheive much or actually do anything much.

I love this country, but am continually concerned about all the newer laws and changes made 'FOR US' by the government etc in our supposed best interests, when clearly most are made to suit big business/governments etc.
The last thing I want to see is Australia turn into another America.

[flappist]

Originally Posted by HSV587

Its quite amazing seeing people agree with this idea,especially when a lot of the people agreeing have some early girl cars as well.....bet they would be kicking and screaming when they cant get their X series registered because its not a GT/GS......

No you miss the point completely. There is no difference between a XY GT and a XY Falcon 500, everything and anything can be collected.

The difference is that collected cars would have cheaper club rego, cheaper insurance and cannot be used as a daily driver, just like club rego now.

[flappist]

Originally Posted by Nikked

Wouldn't this also effect resale in a bad way?

If it affects it in the same way it has affected ex-military vehicles and warbirds I do not think it will be a problem.

How many Phase 3 GTHOs were used as a daily driver playing in the traffic with the yummy mummys, doof doofs and taxis in 2008?

As opposed to how many (of the ones that are actually driven) were driven for a short spurt locally, to and from a show or track, on an organised cruise or to a panel shop/garage?

[Bucknaked]

Any government that makes peoples cars redundant after 10 years making them buy a new car or one a few years old will not see government again.

[HSV587]

Im not a fan of being told what i can and cant drive as a daily runabout.The government has been trying to do this for years covertly(phasing out super/LRP,subsidys for scrap metal),but what about FREEDOM OF CHOICE?Why should any government body tell me I cant drive my old 202 ute to get a load of firewood or take a load of rubbish to the tip?Sure,if i belt a tree at 100kph I would end up in better shape if i was driving a FG XR8/Maloo etc,but isnt that my choice to make?Alcohol kills people,so why dont we close down the pubs/bottlos?Ciggys kill,why dont we ban them?Americans kill people,and are most inheritantly stupid and legally own firearms,why not ban americans?How about a more rational spin on the subject.I have owned(and im not joking)propably in exess of 50 cars since my teenage years,and mainly older 60s/70s/80s vehicles,but I know how to drive older vehicles,I always allow the extra for braking distances,corners etc,there is a whole world of difference in stepping out of the HSV,then jumping in the ute,so my driving style changes too.How about more stringent testing for one,and for those that CHOOSE to drive an older car without all the safety gear,a special driving course and test.Proof in the pudding is a little story about my old XB 351 panelvan(running gear soon to be installed in XC van body,pics coming soon ).Dad can drive it on the wet tassie roads,no problems,im the same,never had an issue,but my younger brother,whos had late model stuff since he got his liscence and has a VX SS ute,is terrifyed of it,and has spun it on several occasions.....

[flappist]

Originally Posted by Bucknaked

Any government that makes peoples cars redundant after 10 years making them buy a new car or one a few years old will not see government again.

Any government that takes away the people right to defend themselves will not see government again..... yes it did.

Any government that brings in GST after guaranteeing that they wouldn't will not see government again...... yes it did.

Any government that would build an AFL stadium while hospitals are falling down will not see government again..... yes it did.

Any government that removes the open limits in NT will not see government again.... yes it did.

The problem with mandatory voting is everyone votes and theat means the majority rules and the majority are are always engrossed in their own little world so it there choice between you keeping your car and a 1% drop in the price of beer or legal porn channel on TV or a $10 increase in the dole or a $900 gift of your own money......

The majority are not YOU (or me either)....

[Donny]

Originally Posted by flappist

Any government that would build an AFL stadium while hospitals are falling down will not see government again..... yes it did.....

LOL, thats a sore point and your 100% correct too. :togo:
2 diffrent monkeys to vote for still = the same garbage, or vote green and get your vote given to the major party who gives the greens the best payoffs and deals. :togo: :togo:

I will celebrate the day Voting is either no longer compulsary, or we get rid of all the pollie monkeys and get people who actually can do somthing right. Or we can have a shooting gallery where the current lot of pollies are lined up like ducks and we can plug em 1 at a time. Id pay to do that.

[davocol]

Correct me If I am wrong but I don't think the idea is to force everyone who has a 10 year old car to trade it but merely an incentive for people to remove them off the streets if they wish. If the car is still in reasonable condition and the driver is happy they simply keep it. I think it is a good idea.

[Daymoe]

I'm all for this if it means I can relatively new cars for $3,000 (BAs etc). Imagine what my $13,000 would get me!

[4Vman]

Originally Posted by Daymoe

I'm all for this if it means I can relatively new cars for $3,000 (BAs etc). Imagine what my $13,000 would get me!

Are you serious? did you read the topic?

[flappist]

Originally Posted by 4Vman

Are you serious? did you read the topic?

Why break an AFF tradition. You don't read the topic or initial post, you just read the last couple and go off like a pork chop in the sun.

That is the AFF way, grasshopper........

[davocol]

Ignore mine above I posted in the wrong thread.

[DJR-351]

Originally Posted by Donny

Lots of things I dont like about this idea.

Tradditionally, I dont like changing cars that often. I get a car I like and keep them.

I dont like XR6's, I like GT's, so in this case every time its over this proposed limit, I gotta buy a new GT, and it AINT gunna be a 20k car EVER.

I also dont like the idea of being forced to only be able to use my old XY GT on limited type use. As it stands now, I can hop into my XY GT ANY time I please and go out for a drive, or if my BF GT is off the road for whatever reason, the XY is my transport.

New cars cost way more to look after than older ones, and the service and parts cost is huge.

Even today with the cheaper Kia's and Hyundais etc, (on the gold coast anyway) there arent many real old dog bangers getting around anymore, not like the old EJ Holdon or X series Falcons, or Valiants etc with holes in the doors and Flinstones floor pans etc, or the old 1200 Datto spewing out more smoke from the rings than petrol out of the tank.

The dog cars today on the gold coast are like the 80's Nissan Pintara type cars and neglected VN's/P's/R's etc and XF's, EA's, B's F and L's, AU's, even some BA's etc. Theres heaps of these things running round here in a very poorly condition.

Most of the old classics are in pretty good shape and are usually well looked after by their owners these days. I dont think having them on a restricted type or limited use setup is going to make a huge diffrence in the scheme of things.
Most of the classics today come out over the weekends and are used in a small way, but its not fair to limit them completly to those who have full rego on them and want them available at any time.

I think the worst impact we would suffer from this apart from forced debt, that the banks and financial sector would love;
would be the amount of waste space and carbon/pollution from scrapping and disposing of all the cars that dont fit the above catagories.
Just imagine the space needed to store 10 to 16 odd million cars that would not meet the above criterias. And remember a lot of Aussies, specially families etc have 2 or more cars.
Even crushed or shredded, they would take up lots of space and require specialised storage/disposal of coolants/fluids and oils etc.

Also, we talk of people earning 50k a year. Im not one of those people, I keep my life very simple.
I own everything, My home, all my GT's, all the contents of my home etc etc, I have zero debt and like to keep it that way.
This allows me to work on my terms and earn less than 20k a year.
I live very simply, I dont have Foxtel etc, no home phone, just a mobile, the internet and pay the usual bills like rates, insurance, child support etc.
This translates to me 'needing' to work 2 days a week at the most.
The rest if and when I want it is pure profit for more toys or upgrades etc.
Having somthing like this proposal would force me to change my whole lifestyle, and I would never accept that. I like living on my own terms way too much.

Thanks Donny, you have saved me adding to my RSI!!!

A couple of things i would like to add though...

When i was just starting out in adult life on a apprentices p@#$poor wage at 17 years of age way back in 78, i bought a $200- 1965 VW Beetle as transport cause that was all i could afford, i was from a single parent family of three boys, so did not have the luxury of the parents chipping in for a decent car, where i grew up that was the norm, not the exeption.

Even then a (decent) ten year old car was still out of reach, and getting a Bank Loan or Hire Purchase was out of the question (no credit rating). I had that v dub for three years gradually fixing the brakes, oil leaks, rust and anything else that came up as and when i could afford it. I saved the pennies and bought a XA station wagon to replace the V Dub and their it went for a few years until i could afford a Vehical less than five years old.

So where does this hypothetical leave the people who grow up in a similar situation today, and that situation is still widespread, what about the students that are trying to put thenselves through Uni, the people on disabilaty or other pensions, admitedly the banks and finance companies will give money to anyone these days, so will it be the first order of business on leaving school to throw yourself into debt (maybe a first car owners grant would be in order).

This $3000 buy back wont last forever, so where does that leave the price of a car that has only one or two years left on its life, will there be a guaranteed trade in value, i doubt it, so who is going to bother spending money on maintaining a vehical which will be worthless in a couple of years anyway.

On a final note, it took me many years to get the cars that i have now, and they are more roadworthy now than when they came of the production line over thirty years ago, they have full rego and that is where i like to keep them, if i wake up at three in the morning and feel like taking one for a drive up the highway, thats what i will do, when i want and for as long as i want, and if some p###k in Canberra wants to fight about it, i will be there.

I,m with the poor suckers.......NO!!!! :

[HSV587]

Originally Posted by XA351COUPE

Thanks Donny, you have saved me adding to my RSI!!!

A couple of things i would like to add though...

When i was just starting out in adult life on a apprentices p@#$poor wage at 17 years of age way back in 78, i bought a $200- 1965 VW Beetle as transport cause that was all i could afford, i was from a single parent family of three boys, so did not have the luxury of the parents chipping in for a decent car, where i grew up that was the norm, not the exeption.

Even then a (decent) ten year old car was still out of reach, and getting a Bank Loan or Hire Purchase was out of the question (no credit rating). I had that v dub for three years gradually fixing the brakes, oil leaks, rust and anything else that came up as and when i could afford it. I saved the pennies and bought a XA station wagon to replace the V Dub and their it went for a few years until i could afford a Vehical less than five years old.

So where does this hypothetical leave the people who grow up in a similar situation today, and that situation is still widespread, what about the students that are trying to put thenselves through Uni, the people on disabilaty or other pensions, admitedly the banks and finance companies will give money to anyone these days, so will it be the first order of business on leaving school to throw yourself into debt (maybe a first car owners grant would be in order).

This $3000 buy back wont last forever, so where does that leave the price of a car that has only one or two years left on its life, will there be a guaranteed trade in value, i doubt it, so who is going to bother spending money on maintaining a vehical which will be worthless in a couple of years anyway.

On a final note, it took me many years to get the cars that i have now, and they are more roadworthy now than when they came of the production line over thirty years ago, they have full rego and that is where i like to keep them, if i wake up at three in the morning and feel like taking one for a drive up the highway, thats what i will do, when i want and for as long as i want, and if some p###k in Canberra wants to fight about it, i will be there.

I,m with the poor suckers.......NO!!!! :

yea,what he said..... :

[dom_105]

Isn't the idea behind this proposal (the safety aspect, anyway) what is actually happening anyway, albeit in an indirect way. After all $3-5k buys you more car today than it did 10 years ago.

Think about it. A young kid with $5k to spend can probably pick up a tidy stock AU/VT, or an EL or EF/VS with low K's. They would be pretty smart as well because with their money they would get 1/2 airbags, ABS, and the best in late 90's engineering. A cheap and relatively safe way of getting around town. Going back 10 years, and the best you could hope for with $5k (CPI adjusted, of course) was a car that was designed when Hawke was in.

Of course, this argument falls down when you consider that there is nothing stopping that same young kid going out and spending $5k on a fully sick VL mate, but the fact remains that there are still more kids today driving around in $5k cars with airbag/s and ABS then there were 10 years ago, because they pretty much didn't exist back then.

Does it not stand to reason that in 10 years, today's primary schoolers will be driving around in BF/FG's or VY/VE's? and those who can't afford whatever they will cost in the future will have to "make do" with BA's and VX's or whatever. The safety implemented in today's cars will take a while to filter down the line, but it will still filter down. The shitboxes of the future will be a whole lot safer than the shitboxes of today.

[Rock ape]

I dont like the idea. I like to drive what i want when i want. I work fly in fly out and
i have a cheap OLD car to park at the airport for a week . I dont want a loan for a new car to park it in the sun and rain for weeks.

[Gobes32]

My 2 cents worth,

I like the idea and think it has merits, but needs a lot more planning behind it. Maybe if it was reduced to cars over 20 years old needing to complete a FREE yearly Vic Roads safety check, i.e, you book a time, go to vic roads (or equivalent motor authority) and an assessor does a 15 min road worthy of your car. If it passes you are free to go, if it doesn't, and depending on how badly you fail, you are either taken off the road or given a notice to repair the car in 30 days or lose your plates?

To try and get bums in new aussie cars then maybe reduce gov't taxes on new car sales if the car is built in oz?

[flappist]

Since it is my hypothetical, I have just been elected president of Australia and I will tell you how I am going to do it.

1) I will seed the media with lots of VL turbo stories and video of idiots.
2) I will find lots of poor single mothers with 45 kids who are stuck with a broken down old EA wagon and would love to have a AU for the safety of the kids.
3) I will show more doof doofs on TV being anti social and ignore anyone with any genuine sense or decent arguement.
4) I will publicly attack "hoons in hotrods" and seed talkback radio with hoon stories.
5) I will ensure all the kids at school do lots of "anti hoon stranger danger" type projects.
6) I will show poor families who have just had their lives turned around by getting a job at a car factory so now little johnny can finally get those footy boots he needs and little jenny can afford dance lessons. Tracy will cry (again).
7) I will get credible professors and doctors to show lots of trauma from hoon hotrods.
8) I will produce studies and statistics that prove beyond all doubt that phase 3 GTHOs are the sole reason for global warming, al quaeda, paedophillia and binge drinking and anyone who disagrees MUST be a drunk child mollesting, reef destroying terrorist (or hotrod hoon which is WORSE)

Nett result, the great unwashed will applaud me for saving them from antsocial hoon hotrodders and classic cars will be the 4 wheel equivalent of semi auto guns.

Lucky this is not real, isn't it.................................

P.S. I did not make up the methodology used, it is the standard one for the last 50 years.........

[4Vman]

I think some peoples attitude to car care and maintance leaves allot to be desired..
A well maintained "old" car is still relatively safe to drive, even a nice well cared for BA will end up a rickety old death trap in the hands of someone who doesnt spend a cent maintaining it or caring for it.
The owners of poorly maintained vehicles will allways have vehicles like this because their $ is better spent on fags and booze...
Its a complex issue that has merrit if some more thought is put into it over time.

[gtfpv]

Originally Posted by flappist

Since it is my hypothetical, I have just been elected president of Australia and I will tell you how I am going to do it.

1) I will seed the media with lots of VL turbo stories and video of idiots.
2) I will find lots of poor single mothers with 45 kids who are stuck with a broken down old EA wagon and would love to have a AU for the safety of the kids.
3) I will show more doof doofs on TV being anti social and ignore anyone with any genuine sense or decent arguement.
4) I will publicly attack "hoons in hotrods" and seed talkback radio with hoon stories.
5) I will ensure all the kids at school do lots of "anti hoon stranger danger" type projects.
6) I will show poor families who have just had their lives turned around by getting a job at a car factory so now little johnny can finally get those footy boots he needs and little jenny can afford dance lessons. Tracy will cry (again).
7) I will get credible professors and doctors to show lots of trauma from hoon hotrods.
8) I will produce studies and statistics that prove beyond all doubt that phase 3 GTHOs are the sole reason for global warming, al quaeda, paedophillia and binge drinking and anyone who disagrees MUST be a drunk child mollesting, reef destroying terrorist (or hotrod hoon which is WORSE)

Nett result, the great unwashed will applaud me for saving them from antsocial hoon hotrodders and classic cars will be the 4 wheel equivalent of semi auto guns.

Lucky this is not real, isn't it.................................

P.S. I did not make up the methodology used, it is the standard one for the last 50 years.........

you've left out point ( 10 ) the HSV W427 is a little over the top . not the F6.

[flappist]

Originally Posted by gtfpv

you've left out point ( 10 ) the HSV W427 is a little over the top . not the F6.

No W427s, F6s FPV GTs are all "enthusiests" motor vehicles (until they are 10 years old) because they create jobs.

It is the "hotrod hoons" not the "car enthiusiests" that are the problem, don't you watch TV.

Now don't talk sense or I will send the black helicopters.....

[Nikked]

Can of worms and Flappist has the opener, i think...

[GT0132]

Originally Posted by 4Vman

The owners of poorly maintained vehicles will allways have vehicles like this because their $ is better spent on fags and booze...

You can spend money on grog and smokes and still have enough money left over to keep your car well maintained and in good nick

[Scott]

A few of the last posts have missed the point;

Daymoe - Yes, the theory would support you buying a BA or whatever for [say] $3k, and yes your $13k would get you into a whole lot better car;
4V - Whilst older cars don't change physically, the enivornment in which they operate changes with every new car that hits the road. Older cars would remain as safe as they were new if safety standards remained flat too.... but that is not the case;
XA - If a BA (as the example) is $3k, a locally produced Fiesta might well be $800 and would fit the apprentice/single mum market would it not?

Don't know about everyone else but a big part of why I drive (and why my wife is forced to drive) a large car is because of my thoughts that bigger is safer... that and RWD with lots of power is safer too. My next car will be a large 5 star car and my wifes will be 5 star at minimum too.

I cringe when I see some mum loading her kids into a Hyundai Excel at the shops, just like I do when the same happens in an old Tarago. There is change afoot in the Auto Industry, why not leverage the momentum and get ALL people into safer, Australian built cars and kill about a thousand birds with one stone.

The concpet of this thread is about stimulating Australian jobs and a spin off is getting people into newer, safer, more reliable cars - many of whom currently pilot a death trap.

Daily drivers will be far safer and more affordable, our mates/wives/kids will have jobs, our kids won't be left with the legacy of Kev's poor management [yes, I am speaking of Australian product in the broader sense]. All you need to do Flappist is figure out a way to make sure I can have my XA Coupe as not only a weekend warrior but a spare daily too.

[loosey]

Let me get this straight, I'm supposed to get rid of my car because its past its 'use by'? Its done less km than a lot of cars 10 years newer and it's serviced every 5000 km. I know of cars which are 4 years old and have never had anymore than one service. I could be potentially trading on a car like this just because my car is past its prescribed use by.
Why couldn't we just implement yearly road worthies for people that chose to keep their older/ higher km cars? (although that would see a lot of modified car owners in trouble because we would have to revert our cars back to stock yearly). You could even put higher rego on the older cars thus making it more appealing for anyone unsure on making the trade. I'd be more than willing to pay a higher rego if it meant i could keep my car and drive it whenever i please.

[gtfpv]

Now don't talk sense or I will send the black helicopters.....[/QUOTE]



HAHAHAHAHA

[DJR-351]

Originally Posted by dom_105

Isn't the idea behind this proposal (the safety aspect, anyway) what is actually happening anyway, albeit in an indirect way. After all $3-5k buys you more car today than it did 10 years ago.

Think about it. A young kid with $5k to spend can probably pick up a tidy stock AU/VT, or an EL or EF/VS with low K's. They would be pretty smart as well because with their money they would get 1/2 airbags, ABS, and the best in late 90's engineering. A cheap and relatively safe way of getting around town. Going back 10 years, and the best you could hope for with $5k (CPI adjusted, of course) was a car that was designed when Hawke was in.

Of course, this argument falls down when you consider that there is nothing stopping that same young kid going out and spending $5k on a fully sick VL mate, but the fact remains that there are still more kids today driving around in $5k cars with airbag/s and ABS then there were 10 years ago, because they pretty much didn't exist back then.

Does it not stand to reason that in 10 years, today's primary schoolers will be driving around in BF/FG's or VY/VE's? and those who can't afford whatever they will cost in the future will have to "make do" with BA's and VX's or whatever. The safety implemented in today's cars will take a while to filter down the line, but it will still filter down. The shitboxes of the future will be a whole lot safer than the shitboxes of today.

How good is a ten year old airbag??, and do you honestly belive that these 5 to 10 year old cars will be as safe as when they originaly left the production line??, how safe these cars are in 5 to 10 years depends on the preceding maintanance and care that the previous owner(s) show, you are assuming these cars will be on sold "as safe" when new ,the majority of car owners are not as enthusiastic or as knowledgeable (spelling) about cars as most people on these forums, and as such, dont give a dam when selling.

Compulsory roadworthys before sale will help....