10 years since GM announced they would cease making cars in Australia

[Franco Cozzo]

Local manufacturing and politics are tied hand in hand, you can't have a discussion without talking about the ugly side of it.

All countries with automotive manufacturing subsidise their industries, as well as have dodgy **** like the US and their 'chicken tax' to 'encourage' manufacturers who want a slice of the US market to build locally.

The Toyota Tundra and Tacoma is an example of that.

You either have sketchy **** going on like the US and its 'chicken tax' or you all work for a bowl of rice a month.

Why would Ford build cars in Australia when they have the 'Auto Alliance' plant in Thailand that can pump out 450,000 cars/year?

What was Broadmeadows capacity, 60,000/year in an ancient plant? I've been watching them pull the factory down in Campbellfield.

[ToryMikey]

Originally Posted by Franco Cozzo

Local manufacturing and politics are tied hand in hand, you can't have a discussion without talking about the ugly side of it.

All countries with automotive manufacturing subsidise their industries, as well as have dodgy **** like the US and their 'chicken tax' to 'encourage' manufacturers who want a slice of the US market to build locally.

The Toyota Tundra and Tacoma is an example of that

Heck even Thailand itself had an 80% tariff on imported motor vehicles until recently. And that's how we get a 2023 Recirculux that carries less, handles worse, is less powerful and uses more fuel than my 1996 ute that has a basic body design from 1979.

[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by ToryMikey

Heck even Thailand itself had an 80% tariff on imported motor vehicles until recently. And that's how we get a 2023 Recirculux that carries less, handles worse, is less powerful and uses more fuel than my 1996 ute that has a basic body design from 1979.

And we signed free trade agreements with them, if anyone is actually interested in how badly that effected our manufacturing industry, go read the productivity commission submissions from tyre and automotive part suppliers to the government at the time.

The one from South Pacific Tyres in 2002 is a great example of a massive manufacturing powerhouse going from being the leading tyre manufacturer in Australia to being dead 6 years later taking out 2000 jobs with them.

We gave 'developing countries' preferential access into our market but they protected their own.

We sign a FTA with South Korea in 2014 but they still have 40% tarrifs on our beef export, sugar exports, 36% on cheddar cheese, 89% on our butter, 289% on malt, 304% on potatoes, 513% on barley.

And we take in their ****box cars duty free since 2014? Who the **** signed this deal? They could do with a pair of glasses I think.

Should put a 513% tarrif on Hyundai and Kia and then see how popular they are in the Australian market.

Originally Posted by Dr Smith

Any government subsidy, either directly in cash or indirectly through offset incentives, etc didn't just prop up a car industry, had a pool of local businesses exist in all the supply chains, it also created jobs in those industries that usually required training, skills development and the ability to manufacturer and sell products in other areas apart from cars. And all those employed paid tax and spent their money locally.
It happens to and by many manufacturers around the world, look at MB and BMW in the USA, Boeing, Airbus, etc....
Losing a local industry has also removed a form of price control that importers no longer have to worry about....you couldn't sell an imported SUV from Kia or Hyundai without worrying about Territory and the same for Commodore and sedans. We've lost far more than what the government of any colour spent supporting the car industry.

Previous employer, employed 700 staff across two production locations in Victoria alone supplying our automotive manufacturing industry, by the time I left in 2022 it was 30 nationally.

[Dr Smith]

Originally Posted by Franco Cozzo

Local manufacturing and politics are tied hand in hand, you can't have a discussion without talking about the ugly side of it.

All countries with automotive manufacturing subsidise their industries, as well as have dodgy **** like the US and their 'chicken tax' to 'encourage' manufacturers who want a slice of the US market to build locally.

The Toyota Tundra and Tacoma is an example of that.

You either have sketchy **** going on like the US and its 'chicken tax' or you all work for a bowl of rice a month.

Why would Ford build cars in Australia when they have the 'Auto Alliance' plant in Thailand that can pump out 450,000 cars/year?

What was Broadmeadows capacity, 60,000/year in an ancient plant? I've been watching them pull the factory down in Campbellfield.

It was about 120K and more limited by the engine plant capacity iirc.

[CyberWasp]

I have a question which is out of curiosity only, which I hope somebody can give an answer.
Not trying to get involved with what each Political Party did here or there , this is just a curiosity.

If we go back to a few years before Ford left the Market for example, is there a figure that could be roughly approximated as to how much the Government would spend a year on the Australian Automotive Industry in subsidies?

The 2nd part is how much does the Australian Government give back now, in Tax Incentives on Dual Cab Utes in a rough yearly figure?

Maybe this is the wrong comparison to make.

I am not sure if it can be answered but just trying to see the before and after and all the implications and jobs that have changed in the 10+ year period since the Car Industry closed.

[Dr Smith]

Originally Posted by CyberWasp

I have a question which is out of curiosity only, which I hope somebody can give an answer.
Not trying to get involved with what each Political Party did here or there , this is just a curiosity.

If we go back to a few years before Ford left the Market for example, is there a figure that could be roughly approximated as to how much the Government would spend a year on the Australian Automotive Industry in subsidies?

The 2nd part is how much does the Australian Government give back now, in Tax Incentives on Dual Cab Utes in a rough yearly figure?

Maybe this is the wrong comparison to make.

I am not sure if it can be answered but just trying to see the before and after and all the implications and jobs that have changed in the 10+ year period since the Car Industry closed.

I remember reading the same numbers below on a more official website but this is what found just now:
https://theconversation.com/factchec...ceived%20%24A1.

So Holden received considerably more.

If we just look at direct subsidies and tariff support in Australia, under the current Labor government car plan $A5.4 billion will be extended in subsidies to the industry over 13 years from 2008 to 2020, totalling about $A415 million a year.

Over the last 10 years or so, Holden has received $A1.8 billion - $A150 million each year from a potential $A2.17 billion pool - while Ford has obtained an estimated $A1.1 billion.

Toyota will not comment officially on subsidies, but it is estimated the Japanese company received about $A1.2 billion in the last decade.

[FTE217]

I'd take the VF Clubsport wagon actually bugga granpa spec

[Sprintey]

Originally Posted by FTE217

I'd take the VF Clubsport wagon actually bugga granpa spec

'Grampa Sports' (GS) has been kind to me

[FTE217]

the 186 was a good motor from my experience in stock for a while, i thought it was bullet proof copped a hiding - then some genie extractors a holley350 jetted to suit it went great even with the 3 on the tree box originally.
This was HG I had roK. Those box linkages were rubbish mind you, they'd lock between 1st/2nd shifts when used agressively.
Sold it before intending a celica box was next.
Yep - I didn't rate the 202 unless you changed the carbs, triples were great but fussy buggas to keep tuned.
I then had a HQ 308 wagon with a full twin zorst fitted, thought it went great and sounded awesum.
I woke up got back into Falcons next.

[roKWiz]

Originally Posted by FTE217

the 186 was a good motor from my experience in stock for a while, i thought it was bullet proof copped a hiding - then some genie extractors a holley350 jetted to suit it went great even with the 3 on the tree box originally.
This was HG I had roK. Those box linkages were rubbish mind you, they'd lock between 1st/2nd shifts when used agressively.
Sold it before intending a celica box was next.
Yep - I didn't rate the 202 unless you changed the carbs, triples were great but fussy buggas to keep tuned.
I then had a HQ 308 wagon with a full twin zorst fitted, thought it went great and sounded awesum.
I woke up got back into Falcons next.

I regularly tuned my own on the courier van it was all in the sound.
My triples carby tuning kit, consisted of a foot long rubber hose, a flat head screwdriver, some ATF and some emery paper for where the pistons could sometimes grab.

The triple Strombergs needed less playing around with but the SU's come on those pollished alloy horns looked fantastic.

Best thing I ever bought from American Auto parts was the adjustable fuel regulator valve.
1/2 pound of pressure was perfect.

[Sprintey]

You guys ever try them with something like this?

http://www.rexresearch.com/fishcarb/fish.htm

Be interested to try, it looks so simple.

Bro has now bought a classic Kingswood, wonder if I convince the Mrs that our new car should have a red 6 in it...

[Sprintey]

The other 6 cyl/auto combination I truly loved was the 4.0i and 4sp auto in the ED series, it was just perfect.

[ToryMikey]

Originally Posted by Sprintey

The other 6 cyl/auto combination I truly loved was the 4.0i and 4sp auto in the ED series, it was just perfect.

Never liked autos usually, but having just got my EL auto I am beginning to see the appeal. Particularly since I put on new front pads and rotors, it's super smooth.



The 4.0i on the other hand? Don't get me wrong I love the Barra but the SOHC is just excellent.

[roKWiz]

Originally Posted by Sprintey

You guys ever try them with something like this?

http://www.rexresearch.com/fishcarb/fish.htm

Be interested to try, it looks so simple.

Bro has now bought a classic Kingswood, wonder if I convince the Mrs that our new car should have a red 6 in it...

Would be good to use on the auto's most went the Holley route if they didn't go triples. SU Stromies, Weber.

[FTE217]

Originally Posted by roKWiz

I regularly tuned my own on the courier van it was all in the sound.
My triples carby tuning kit, consisted of a foot long rubber hose, a flat head screwdriver, some ATF and some emery paper for where the pistons could sometimes grab.

The triple Strombergs needed less playing around with but the SU's come on those pollished alloy horns looked fantastic.

Best thing I ever bought from American Auto parts was the adjustable fuel regulator valve.
1/2 pound of pressure was perfect.

Likewise with the Holley - carried different jets in ready when it played up , nice and simple to change jets.
Strombergs were always the easier compared to SU’s and agreed looked S hot.
Lift the bonnet and just looked muscle whereas strombergs OE look.

Sprintey nah never used that carb.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Sprintey]

Slightly off topic - did a wayback machine search on Mike Brown's old Fish carburettor links, here they are:

https://web.archive.org/web/20220529...om/bccfish.htm

https://web.archive.org/web/20220529...m/morefish.htm

look how simple the thing is in those pics!

https://web.archive.org/web/20220529...om/fishtoc.htm

table of contents

[DFB FGXR6]

Originally Posted by FTE217

the 186 was a good motor from my experience in stock for a while, i thought it was bullet proof copped a hiding - then some genie extractors a holley350 jetted to suit it went great even with the 3 on the tree box originally.
This was HG I had roK. Those box linkages were rubbish mind you, they'd lock between 1st/2nd shifts when used agressively.
Sold it before intending a celica box was next.
Yep - I didn't rate the 202 unless you changed the carbs, triples were great but fussy buggas to keep tuned.
I then had a HQ 308 wagon with a full twin zorst fitted, thought it went great and sounded awesum.
I woke up got back into Falcons next.

My father swears by the 186 as being the sweet spot of those old Holden engines, in particular them being more rev happy than the larger version.

[roKWiz]

Originally Posted by DFB FGXR6

My father swears by the 186 as being the sweet spot of those old Holden engines, in particular them being more rev happy than the larger version.

Just ask Brocky with his 202 Ford GT killer in 72'.

[roKWiz]

Been watching this story on the Holden Dealer Team between 69-87.

Love the story of Larry Perkins who was tasked to road deliver the prototype Torana's to the various racing circuit around south eastern Australia.

At 19.50 mins Brock and Firth tells the story of Larry delivering the XU2 down through Ouyen, Vic at 7000rpm.

[FTE217]

https://www.autoblog.com/2006/07/16/...-in-australia/

Cyber some good questions but to find that data is beyound my time trying to find sites with related intel and broken down, near on impossible I'd say.
Interestingly as asked, what did the Gov's do post closures with the funding put aside originally for the OE's.
Squandered on other lost projects more than anything else, grants left right and centre that you shake your head over yaddayaddayadda.....
Even though infrastructure would have needed that money more than anywhere else incl hospitals - new dams you name it.

[FTE217]

XD was known as the Blackwood project from memory.
Still used the XC chassis that was a large body as we all know and being the fuel crisis time they narrowed down the exterior body work hence the straight ruler approach box design but still retained a lot of interior typical Falcon room but set up better.
Lots of alloy used to lighten the model to compete against the smaller commode.
3.3 was crap imo and a failure to reduce fuel economy overall 4.1 was drinker but pulled hard but common head gasket and rocker cover leaks.
Handling was nothing great typical Falcon cruiser nice on the open road but as usual Falcon under tyred and floaty.
Only once you lowered them and larger rubber footprint did they perform to the enthusiast liking.
Too many faults in them for me as much as I stood by them - how many door handles broke in your hands opening doors for some over time.
Wagon rear tail light design was woeful from memory.
At least it still had a 4.9 and 5.8 that was the main thing


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[MITCHAY]

I think we can all agree that we are not better off for the collapse of the entire car manufacturing industry for a couple of billion of savings a year in the budget.

[Sprintey]

Yep.

https://www.innovationaus.com/austra...plexity-index/

We shouldn't rest on our laurels that we're beating Namibia still, we should all aim in 2024 to work really hard so we over take Kenya, who are ahead of us in 90th.

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by Sprintey

Yep.

https://www.innovationaus.com/austra...plexity-index/

We shouldn't rest on our laurels that we're beating Namibia still, we should all aim in 2024 to work really hard so we over take Kenya, who are ahead of us in 90th.

New Zealand is 46th on the list, so I’m still trying to wrap my head around what this means

Many of the top rated countries appear to be heavily tied to the three main trading blocks,
Asia, Europe and North America. So taking that into account, it’s understandable why there’s more
complexity associated with those countries within those trading blocks…

The fact that many Asian and European countries have “trade barriers”with Australia and many
negotiations with Australia are done at arms length, no wonder our rating is so low, everywhere else
wants cheap labor advantage and the developmental technology that goes with that…

[Sprintey]

Originally Posted by jpd80

New Zealand is 46th on the list, so I’m still trying to wrap my head around what this means

Many of the top rated countries appear to be heavily tied to the three main trading blocks,
Asia, Europe and North America. So taking that into account, it’s understandable why there’s more
complexity associated with those countries within those trading blocks…

The fact that many Asian and European countries have “trade barriers”with Australia and many
negotiations with Australia are done at arms length, no wonder our rating is so low, everywhere else
wants cheap labor advantage and the developmental technology that goes with that…

Haha, yeah NZ is flogging us... um, yeah I'm floored as well. Touche NZ.

You are right on the location aspect - so we have 2 choices. We can be on the receiving end of poor FTA outcomes and a low complexity economy, or we can develop things here, back ourselves, and be our own high complexity economy. If we are to do it, we have to do it ourselves.

[MITCHAY]

Two failed projects I know that were wrote off are in the 2-3b range. Barely a mention in the media while we waste time on rounding errors on politicians travel. Making cars what an outrage

[Sprintey]

Back on topic, dug around and found an answer to my early Commodore vs XD Falcon question. Peter Wherrett was a fantastic reviewer, he takes the everyday car to it's limit, explains the strengths, weaknesses and is no nonsense in his description of it. So let's go back to 1980 when Holden and Ford were about as different as they got:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5aeRCKWh26c

Hands off at over 150 at Lang Lang! The 2850 gets a bit of a panning at the end, but he likes the suspension and points out the car is a great leap up from the handling and ride combo of earlier Holdens.

And next, the XD. There's some familiar places in this one, like St George's river, Cathedral Rock, Spout Creek and the Geelong foreshore. He uses the 3.3L and 4 speed manual and stresses it's easy to use and good for how the car will be normally driven.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XL4P27eoUl4

[roKWiz]

Originally Posted by Sprintey

Back on topic, dug around and found an answer to my early Commodore vs XD Falcon question. Peter Wherrett was a fantastic reviewer, he takes the everyday car to it's limit, explains the strengths, weaknesses and is no nonsense in his description of it. So let's go back to 1980 when Holden and Ford were about as different as they got:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5aeRCKWh26c

Hands off at over 150 at Lang Lang! The 2850 gets a bit of a panning at the end, but he likes the suspension and points out the car is a great leap up from the handling and ride combo of earlier Holdens.

And next, the XD. There's some familiar places in this one, like St George's river, Cathedral Rock, Spout Creek and the Geelong foreshore. He uses the 3.3L and 4 speed manual and stresses it's easy to use and good for how the car will be normally driven.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XL4P27eoUl4

I'm only going by my own experience but after the end of the big Holdens HQ to HZ, my father looked around for a new replacement at the time for his HZ wagon, he abosolutely didn't like the new SMALL Commodore and was left to buy a Ford after almost 30 something years of Holden wagons since EK.

The Fairmont Ghia sedan (Ghost Gum) he bought at the time was not a wagon
(did Ford make a Ghia wagon then ?? ) as from memory there were limited Falcon wagons available to buy at the time.
I would go out every second night with him as he did upholstery quoting for his business at night, so I got to know the new car very well with him driving all over $ydney comparing it to the previous Holden HZ SL Kingswood wagon which after the lease ran out, I purchased off him as my first car.

He didn't like the boxy shape compared to the Holden but thought the vision was good due to the sedan back quarter windows. I can't recall him ever complaining about the xflow engine and power. He always bought automatics from right back to the EK wagon.

[lra]

Good pick-up in those 2 videos.

'Torque' was one of my favourite shows back when. Peter Wherret was very capable steerer and commentator, but people seem to often remember him for his personal problems later in his life. Bit of a shame (not his life) but for what he contributed to the Aus car scene. No BS needed.

The days of road tests like this, conducted by journalists who could drive, (Peter Robinson, Bill Tuckey, and quite a few more) are long gone. Todays reviewer's read the brochure, repeat what is there, and add a few comments regarding cup holders and get orgasmic about the size of the touch screen and number of icons therein.

Holden handling ......... it could have been great from the HQ onwards, but George Roberts (GMH engineer) preferred the American way, a soft ride on typical Australian crap roads over crisp handling. It took a junior German engineer (Peter Hanenberger) to do a few adjustments to the front suspension, and viola, the HZ with RTS, which flowed on to the Commodore.

OK .....road conditions have changed, more urban than country and the roads are better now than 1980. You can now drive from Melbourne, Sydney or Brisbane to the "Dig Tree" and not have to drive on more than 10km of dusty dirt.

[roKWiz]

Originally Posted by lra

Good pick-up in those 2 videos.

'Torque' was one of my favourite shows back when. Peter Wherret was very capable steerer and commentator, but people seem to often remember him for his personal problems later in his life. Bit of a shame (not his life) but for what he contributed to the Aus car scene. No BS needed.

The days of road tests like this, conducted by journalists who could drive, (Peter Robinson, Bill Tuckey, and quite a few more) are long gone. Todays reviewer's read the brochure, repeat what is there, and add a few comments regarding cup holders and get orgasmic about the size of the touch screen and number of icons therein.

Holden handling ......... it could have been great from the HQ onwards, but George Roberts (GMH engineer) preferred the American way, a soft ride on typical Australian crap roads over crisp handling. It took a junior German engineer (Peter Hanenberger) to do a few adjustments to the front suspension, and viola, the HZ with RTS, which flowed on to the Commodore.

OK .....road conditions have changed, more urban than country and the roads are better now than 1980. You can now drive from Melbourne, Sydney or Brisbane to the "Dig Tree" and not have to drive on more than 10km of dusty dirt.

There was RTS on Pontiac Trans Ams long before our own Holden had it, the RTS was only a matters of moving the front pivot point mounts forward on the chassis rails the extra bigger bar and stiffer bushes helped.



From an article my mistake was a Pontiac Ventura not Trans Am first.



One of my favorite such badges, and one that graced the dashboard of my family’s 1976 Pontiac Ventura, proudly touted Radial Tuned Suspension.

The badge, which wore a stylized “RTS” logo, was magical to me as a young driver, as it suggested that our reliable Pontiac was something sportier than the compact-car norm. And to some extent, that was true–though by 1976, the radial-tire hype had already started to seem a little superfluous.

Around 1970, something called radial-ply tires (radials) began replacing bias-ply tires on new vehicles. The new tire technology, which featured structural cords arranged at a different angle than the bias-ply examples, proved to be a huge step forward in terms of ride, handling, and reliability.

What Was The Studebaker XUV?

Pontiac Ventura RTS Badge
The Radial Tuned Suspension badge in the 1976 Pontiac Ventura was located to the left of the steering wheel just below the speedometer.
Because of the improved ride quality, manufacturers found they could firm up a given car’s suspension without compromising passenger comfort. However, since radials were typically optional at the time, carmakers would need to offer separate suspension setups for cars on which both tire types were available.

While most every carmaker eventually had to deal with offering at least two suspension arrangements for a period of time, Pontiac made the most of it by branding its radial setup as Radial Tuned Suspension.

What Radial Tuned Suspension actually consisted of varied by car and by year. In the case of large Pontiacs, RTS appeared first for 1973 as a package that included firmly tuned springs and shock absorbers, and, of course, radial tires.

The package was a but more comprehensive on the Firebird, which included a unique rear sway bar as well. As radial tires quickly became standard equipment on cars, the RTS badging started to look redundant pretty early in the process, though the nameplate appeared in Firebirds as late as 1981.

As for our Ventura, I recall it being a pretty tidy handler for the day… though by 1976, it was the rare car that did not come standard with radial tires. Still, I loved that badge.

Interestingly, though Pontiac was the only General Motors brand to employ the Radial Tuned Suspension badge in the U.S., GM’s Australian brand Holden made liberal use of the badge and moniker at about the same time.