Explanation of Falcon X model designation

[mick taylor]

Originally Posted by HO 3

There was a lot of input by Aussies in successive models after the transplanted XK Falcon reliability disaster. I think it was collapsing ball joints or something or other. Bill Burke was probably trying to make a point "That Its Fixed" when he initiated that 70k mile reliability trial a few years later.

Cheers Mick

Crap quality UK ball joints was the main problem, the USA had quality ball joints.

Hell I even had a ball joint go in my HX Holden in 1984 it had striped the thread and a mate was driving it at the time. a cheap quality one I would think it was.

[mick taylor]

Originally Posted by bungarra

And there is me stupidly believing the 5 Ford books that all state XA was designed by Australians for Australia and the XA coupe was recommended to be designed on the Torino but was found to look awkward due to the longer overhang of the Torino.

oh well, learn soemthign new, love a good conspiracy.

It was designed by Australians for Australians and that's a fact, just that the USA did the initial workings as Australia did not have that depth of doing such workings at the time.

The Torino was made for Yanks coil rear springs even on the ute.

As for long over hang the USA Falcon 1959 1960 on that we got had more rear over hang, look at them USA ute it's totally different with long doors our XK-L-M-P are short and with shorter over hang tail.
The station wagon of our XR-T-W-Y type of Falcon is totally different to the USA ones as they are long and even have the door that opens from the side, like we could option on the XA-X-C.

[mick taylor]

Originally Posted by ipn

I'm not arguing ok , far before the Ford involvement of a XA style i have seen in movies or whatever they were (can't recall , only recall seeing them) something in the lines of Plymouth? dodge? or some other obscure brand that i also don't recall as since i ain't a car nut or historian , and talking about historians where were those that knew about the over there already so why are they New here whatever the manufacturer's name was a XA copy before the XA style even existed here .

One has to remember over there in the usa the amount of makers and models were staggering , nearly all copied each other in some way and even years later reinvigorated something from other makes or models claiming it "theirs".

And i'd also type here of a subject called "marketing spin" , who is gunna say we copied such and such from such and such , who is not gunna say we did not invent or design this or that just for you the people and blah blah blah .

Mount Panorama the battle between Ford and Holden , American cars and imo it's been BS for years , after the WW2 it all started imo , all those backroom deals favoring certain entities , like did you know Australia was not allowed to make a Watch , or a Barometer by law , cheese imports ha ha ha, they had to be imported and if one pokes around in history there has been a lot that has been fiddled with by law that benefits everyone else except this Dump !.

It's all been a Con and that's why things are changing now or slowly changing back from around 15 years ago or so , the 50 year backroom Deal , that's why the yanks are ****ing off and coinciding with that the Good English people have not too long ago finally paid the WW2 War years loans off back to the yanks , then we get Brexit , then around and around we all go again .

Paul

(Any body fall asleep reading all that? WAKE UP!)

It's about that someone owns the rights to things, even the name Falcon Cortina etc all have someone who owns the rights to such and every one made they get their cut.
Like with music all to do with the Song get a cut with every sale.

Some threatened the world bank and the banks got a PM to deal with that kicking off WW2 but it was all a cunning plot as all leaders were in on it to get markets they wanted.

I have seen a photo of drawings in around about the 1968-9 of our VH Valiant and XA Falcon and HQ Holden in the same room in the USA with the same styling people working on them all and it makes sense that only the top design people work on such things, it's not just a small one brand group in a company as one would think, but the people working on such don't go telling anyone what they are doing or they would never work again in such a industry.
It's the same with Engines one group do the major work in casting designs, The paper work designs are sent to this mob who work out how to cast the blocks, they work out how best to set the tooling up, get it all to a point of perfection and then give all the tooling to the company's to set off doing it themselves.
The first Holden grey motors do not have Holden cast on them, they have CWC.

[nstg8a]

Wow.... not sure if you guys are serious or having a little troll....


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[GasoLane]

Originally Posted by mick taylor

It's about that someone owns the rights to things, even the name Falcon Cortina etc all have someone who owns the rights to such and every one made they get their cut.

Are you saying that the Ford management board chose someone, who never worked for them, to give the Falcon it's name?

Ford then had to pay this person royalties for every car sold worldwide?

[HO 3]

Originally Posted by GasOLane

Are you saying that the Ford management board chose someone, who never worked for them, to give the Falcon it's name?

Ford then had to pay this person royalties for every car sold worldwide?

What! You have seriously never heard of the Pininfarina Falcon. ............come to think of it neither have I.

Cheers Mick

[hackney]

[QUOTE=mick taylor;6074007]It's about that someone owns the rights to things, even the name Falcon Cortina etc all have someone who owns the rights to such and every one made they get their cut.
Like with music all to do with the Song get a cut with every sale.

Ford(“Motor Co.”) “own” the rights to the name,period! (Not one individual)Chrysler corporation also where interested in using it(they did have Chrysler Falcon around 1950(fact)Ford decided on the name for their upcoming compact sedan,Ford beat Chrysler (by about twenty mins) to register the name with the Automobile Manufacturers association.Think it was around 1958-59.Cheers

[Sar4890]

I wonder how long they get to keep the name if its not being used or do they keep it for as long as they are in business? Case point the studebaker landcruiser.

[hackney]

[QUOTE=Sar4890;6074064]I wonder how long they get to keep the name if its not being used or do they keep it for as long as they are in business? Case point the studebaker landcruiser.[/
I am pretty sure if they own the rights to the name,they keep it forever(happy to stand corrected.)Cheers

[commodorenutt]

Wow, too many Oz-day drinks for some.... royalties for car names..... sheesh, it's like the early dot-com days all over again....

Originally Posted by Sar4890

I wonder how long they get to keep the name if its not being used or do they keep it for as long as they are in business? Case point the studebaker landcruiser.

There is a limit to how long a name can be "reserved" for, and also a limit to how long a company (not just a car manufacturer) can maintain a hold on that name before having to use it, or relinquish it. The laws governing this also vary from one nation to another too, and time limits can (and have) changed over the decades.

And what is reserved in one country, doesn't necessarily stop other companies, in other countries, from using that same trademark, on something completely different. However, most global corporates will register trademarks in all markets where they sell vehicles, to protect their IP & names - like FCA did with the Hellcat, Demon & Trackhawk names being registered in Oz, despite little chance of those models being sold here.

Ford recently faced this trademark issue with the Edge nameplate for Australia. Toyota Australia have it reserved (since the early 2000s from memory) but still had rights to it unless someone challenges/opposes it. In this case Ford wanted the Edge name, so they opposed it, and it was over to Toyota to either relinquish, or renew. They renewed, and they have something like 5 years now to "use it or lose it" (cue a special edition Corolla Edge being released in time for EOFYS ....)

If you have a look at section 92 of the Trademarks act, you can see it's only 3 years for most trademarks:
https://www.legislation.gov.au/Details/C2017C00046

However, motor vehicles are treated differently, as they come under class 12, and the time limits are longer.

But basically if nobody challenges it, they have it for life by default. But once challenged, they are given the opportunity to renew the registration, and have a time limit to "use it or lose it"

[roKWiz]

Winnebago is a good example of a name.
The parent company chose to stop lending their name to conversions outside the US leaving Winnebago Aust in limbo.
I recall they have only just won the right to re use the name but are now sticking with AVIDA.

[9triton]

Originally Posted by Sar4890

..... As far as falcons go you would have to go back to the 1960/ xk to find a model that was identical in sedans.

the Australian XL falcon -released in August 62 was same as the american
62.1/2 model year ford

infact ford australia were so keen to distance themselves from the XK models weakness the XL falcon was released in australia a few months before itwas relased in the USA .

in america the XK sedan roof /c pilars was called the round body - the XL had the thunderbird C pillars

https://www.uniquecarsandparts.com.a...ford_falcon_xl

xk C pillar:



XL C pillar:




T

he tail lamps were revised and the rear roof line was changed to reflect Ford's "Thunderbird" style theme, which in turn created a wider rear pillar and larger rear window. But the most serious changes were made under the skin, with significant mechanical upgrades - a new gearbox, clutch, starter, air and oil filters and improved braking. The suspension modifications already mentioned were an attempt to sort out the problematic (weak) front suspension for which the Falcon was getting plenty of bad publicity.

But perhaps more significant than any of these changes was the fact that the Australian facelifted Falcon went to market before the US iterations. By now Ford was very much committed to making the Falcon a success, and by releasing the XL when they did, they were able to steal the march on the Generals new EJ model, beating them to launch by just a few days. However the EJ Holden was rather more than a mere "facelift", which prompted Ford to boast that the XL Falcon had 734 new parts. In the same week that GM-H launched its EJ range, Ford Australia gave us the ‘Trim, taut, terrific!’ XL. This was two months before North American customers could get one in their driveways. Highlights of this facelift were the new ‘Thunderbird’ roofline with thicker C-pillars

[Sar4890]

Thanks for the info 9triton I'm going to have a look for 1962 1/2 pics now. So is it from the xm on that we started adding our touches to the falcons for Australia?

[Olbucko]

The XL had a more aggressive stainless steel grille than the American version which had a softer, more rounded, anodised aluminium grille

[mick taylor]

Originally Posted by GasOLane

Are you saying that the Ford management board chose someone, who never worked for them, to give the Falcon it's name?

Ford then had to pay this person royalties for every car sold worldwide?

They Ford would of bought it I would think and all names like Fairlane and Fairmont, Marquis. sure a dude was called in to help them for sure at the time and another to do with the laws.

Holden does not or did not own names like Statesman or the name Caprice, Kingswood as such names are on other Cars.
Our HQ Statesman was never a Holden Statesman ? it was never called that till the VQ Commodore Statesman that it became a Holden Statesman, as there was a HQ-J Chevrolet Statesman we made as well that was exported to South Africa.

Brougham is one that Ford has as well, so may not of owned it.

I think with S and X PACK and SL, SL/E as such do not have to be payed and with the last Falcons they cut Fairmont out to cut cost maybe $20 to $200 ?

I am saying that Company's can not just name anything they want.

Many times they have to go out side the Company and they do on most things, even most parts are not made by Ford it's self but other company's are contracted to make the parts, if Ford were to make every part they could not compete at all and the unions would destroy such as well.

With every type of part has a type of Pat on it.

GM and Ford has not made a total Engine in years it's all another company's that do all that, look at the gearbox or the diff's, just here in Aus B/W did all the Fords and Holden's from the VL on, a Holden mate truly claimed that the diffs and gearbox made at B/W were much better quality in the Holden's than the Fords

even the Nissan 3.0L in the VL commodore or the V6 or GEN 3 V8 on is not a Chev or made by GM, do you see GM cast on it any where ? 2 company's cast or make them and they make Fords engines as well, you can see the brand mark cast on them.

Holden may of assembled the Alloytec V6 and the heads were cast here but not one engine block.
Holden once had Holden cast on the block and head on the red motors but that stoped about 1973 I think, maybe because our 308 was also sold as a Chevrolet in South Africa.

I knew the bloke who owned all the Royalties rights in Australia to every BMC car truck etc sold here and it's not like he payed $2 for it, as such would be in the millions to deal with and I believe he had to market the brand etc so he was not just some dumb schmuck who won the lottery.

[Trump]

(insert facepalm here)

[commodorenutt]

Oh dear. Someone's really been on the grass.....

Last time I looked at a Gen3 block it had a bowtie & GM cast into it.... V6s were cast in Port Melbourne, and machined there too. Sure, some parts were buy-in, but a huge proportion of that motor was cast & machined in Australia by HEC.

Likewise Ford with the I6 - it has always been cast, machined & assembled by Ford Geelong. With the exception of some smaller ancillary parts (I worked for the company in the 90s who did the timing covers, rocker supports, thermostat housings & oil pump housings for the 4.0L from EB-EL, and partly into AU (WR2A). But again, made in Oz, by a subcontractor, but still assembled by Ford in Geelong.

And lets not forget Salisbury diffs made in SA for many years prior to B/W diffs (which Holden only started using in '85), GM Philippes making gearboxes entiirely in-house, trimatics, Aussie 4-speeds.....

If you were truly knowledgable you would have called it a GM Statesman, as that's what the HQ-HZ was actually called.

I'm not even going to bother with the names thing - it's been covered by several posters who actually have half a clue about the business world, trademarks, and the car industry. Something you seem to severely lack. Either that or you believe all the crap that the local barfly spins.....

[mick taylor]

Originally Posted by Trump

(insert facepalm here)

You cant just put a name on something or you will get sued big dollars, not even a coffee shop and you can't just make anything you want and sell it.

The law is full of things that your average Joe Blow just could never understand.

People think that the HQ Statesman is a Holden, well you would think that it was but in fact it's not by Law.
The HQ Belmont Kingswood Premier are Holden's, they are called Holden Belmont, Holden Kingswood, Holden Premier, but never is it called a HQ Holden Statesman.

It's a HQ Statesman made by Holden, as it is a Statesman made by Holden. but was also sold as Statesman Chevrolet in South Africa.

I think there is a Chevrolet Statesman in USA but it's not our Aussie car at all.

Our 1990's VQ is a Holden Statesman and it's not called a Commodore.

[commodorenutt]

Originally Posted by mick taylor

They Ford would of bought it I would think and all names like Fairlane and Fairmont, Marquis. sure a dude was called in to help them for sure at the time and another to do with the laws.

Really?

Are you serious, or actually taking the pi$$?

Surely you don't believe this drivel? Or maybe you do....

It's widely known, and printed in numerous history books, that Fairlane was named after one of Ford's own estate/ranch properties of the same name. No dope-smoking "dude" came up with that one.

And Ford have a team of legal people on staff, who trademark each & every name, in all the relevant markets. GT-F anyone? XR6 Sprint? Yep, all trademarked in Oz, by Ford's legal team.

There's no less that 5 active XR6 trademarks owned by Ford:
https://search.ipaustralia.gov.au/tr.../1684933?q=XR6
https://search.ipaustralia.gov.au/tr.../1684932?q=XR6
https://search.ipaustralia.gov.au/tr...w/966789?q=XR6
https://search.ipaustralia.gov.au/tr...w/944014?q=XR6
https://search.ipaustralia.gov.au/tr...w/836133?q=XR6

Originally Posted by mick taylor

Holden does not or did not own names like Statesman or the name Caprice, Kingswood as such names are on other Cars.

In Australia, they do, as a subsidiary of GM. GM USA trademarked many of the names Holden used locally - Caprice & Kingswood are 2 great examples. In Australia, GM own the trademark for them both.

And just so you can see I'm not actually talking our of my butt-hole like you are, here's the link to it:
https://search.ipaustralia.gov.au/tr...58?q=Kingswood

And would you look at that:
https://search.ipaustralia.gov.au/tr...0273?q=Caprice
https://search.ipaustralia.gov.au/tr...7824?q=Caprice

And while I'm on a roll:
https://search.ipaustralia.gov.au/tr...442?q=Fairlane

2 that could have been - a Fairlane G6 & G8:
https://search.ipaustralia.gov.au/tr...680?q=Fairlane
https://search.ipaustralia.gov.au/tr...682?q=Fairlane


And here's one for you. Did that same "dude" come up with Commodore when Holden wanted a name in 1978?

GM had already trademarked it 12 years earlier:
https://search.ipaustralia.gov.au/tr...36?q=Commodore

Many car companies have a bank of trademarked names to choose from too.

And when it has the car company's name as the owner, you bet your *** they own it. Nobody would be paid royalties unless they owned the public trademark.

[Trump]

Originally Posted by mick taylor

You cant just put a name on something or you will get sued big dollars, not even a coffee shop and you can't just make anything you want and sell it.

The law is full of things that your average Joe Blow just could never understand.

People think that the HQ Statesman is a Holden, well you would think that it was but in fact it's not by Law.
The HQ Belmont Kingswood Premier are Holden's, they are called Holden Belmont, Holden Kingswood, Holden Premier, but never is it called a HQ Holden Statesman.

It's a HQ Statesman made by Holden, as it is a Statesman made by Holden. but was also sold as Statesman Chevrolet in South Africa.

I think there is a Chevrolet Statesman in USA but it's not our Aussie car at all.

Our 1990's VQ is a Holden Statesman and it's not called a Commodore.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uq-v1TTUyhM

[mick taylor]

Originally Posted by commodorenutt

Oh dear. Someone's really been on the grass.....

Last time I looked at a Gen3 block it had a bowtie & GM cast into it.... V6s were cast in Port Melbourne, and machined there too. Sure, some parts were buy-in, but a huge proportion of that motor was cast & machined in Australia by HEC.

Likewise Ford with the I6 - it has always been cast, machined & assembled by Ford Geelong. With the exception of some smaller ancillary parts (I worked for the company in the 90s who did the timing covers, rocker supports, thermostat housings & oil pump housings for the 4.0L from EB-EL, and partly into AU (WR2A). But again, made in Oz, by a subcontractor, but still assembled by Ford in Geelong.

And lets not forget Salisbury diffs made in SA for many years prior to B/W diffs (which Holden only started using in '85), GM Philippes making gearboxes entiirely in-house, trimatics, Aussie 4-speeds.....

If you were truly knowledgable you would have called it a GM Statesman, as that's what the HQ-HZ was actually called.

I'm not even going to bother with the names thing - it's been covered by several posters who actually have half a clue about the business world, trademarks, and the car industry. Something you seem to severely lack. Either that or you believe all the crap that the local barfly spins.....

I have not gone into it looking up all the details, it's just off the cuff bro, but I do have them somewhere.

It's only a forum you know and unless someone is stating the facts in the Law and you will not get that info will you.

Fact is it's not a GM because it is in fact a GM-H !
GM is a lot of Brands and never called GM on it's own ever.

Salisbury Diff is a design Banjo is also a design a in house Holden thing just as the Aussie manual box were and the Tri-matic

You are correct about what you have said about our Ford 6, but from the alloy heads on, this was imported and the DOHC the cams come from China as I was informed.

I have never seen a bowtie on the Alloy V8's called Gen3 block or heads.

The Holden V6 Alloytec block was never cast hear at all, they tried but failed and cost that company Millions and it's not the HEC company at all but they did cast the heads and Holden did machine the things and put then together.

[commodorenutt]

Keep on digging..... you're half way to China already.

[mick taylor]

Originally Posted by commodorenutt

Really?

Are you serious, or actually taking the pi$$?

Surely you don't believe this drivel? Or maybe you do....

It's widely known, and printed in numerous history books, that Fairlane was named after one of Ford's own estate/ranch properties of the same name. No dope-smoking "dude" came up with that one.

And Ford have a team of legal people on staff, who trademark each & every name, in all the relevant markets. GT-F anyone? XR6 Sprint? Yep, all trademarked in Oz, by Ford's legal team.

There's no less that 5 active XR6 trademarks owned by Ford:
https://search.ipaustralia.gov.au/tr.../1684933?q=XR6
https://search.ipaustralia.gov.au/tr.../1684932?q=XR6
https://search.ipaustralia.gov.au/tr...w/966789?q=XR6
https://search.ipaustralia.gov.au/tr...w/944014?q=XR6
https://search.ipaustralia.gov.au/tr...w/836133?q=XR6



In Australia, they do, as a subsidiary of GM. GM USA trademarked many of the names Holden used locally - Caprice & Kingswood are 2 great examples. In Australia, GM own the trademark for them both.

And just so you can see I'm not actually talking our of my butt-hole like you are, here's the link to it:
https://search.ipaustralia.gov.au/tr...58?q=Kingswood

And would you look at that:
https://search.ipaustralia.gov.au/tr...0273?q=Caprice
https://search.ipaustralia.gov.au/tr...7824?q=Caprice

And while I'm on a roll:
https://search.ipaustralia.gov.au/tr...442?q=Fairlane

2 that could have been - a Fairlane G6 & G8:
https://search.ipaustralia.gov.au/tr...680?q=Fairlane
https://search.ipaustralia.gov.au/tr...682?q=Fairlane


And here's one for you. Did that same "dude" come up with Commodore when Holden wanted a name in 1978?

GM had already trademarked it 12 years earlier:
https://search.ipaustralia.gov.au/tr...36?q=Commodore

Many car companies have a bank of trademarked names to choose from too.

And when it has the car company's name as the owner, you bet your *** they own it. Nobody would be paid royalties unless they owned the public trademark.

I never said they did not own the trademark fool.
Of cause they own it or another does in some cases.

[mick taylor]

In 2005 Holden was left without a engine block supplier.
The company that was to make them is the ION Group and we got the blocks from Mexico and others maybe.
ION cast the heads here.

I don't know if we in Aus cast the blocks for our V6 in the VN to VY.

Most people think casting a engine block a simple thing to do from scratch

[mick taylor]

Originally Posted by Trump

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uq-v1TTUyhM

The thing is bro that the car was never named a Holden Statesman in the HQ.
I call them Holden Statesman's, because I thought they were, until I found out that that's not what they truly are called by Holden, you will not see in the Brochures Holden Statesman in a HQ.

[commodorenutt]

Originally Posted by mick taylor

Holden does not or did not own names like Statesman or the name Caprice, Kingswood as such names are on other Cars.

Originally Posted by commodorenutt

In Australia, they do, as a subsidiary of GM. GM USA trademarked many of the names Holden used locally - Caprice & Kingswood are 2 great examples. In Australia, GM own the trademark for them both.

And just so you can see I'm not actually talking our of my butt-hole like you are, here's the link to it:
https://search.ipaustralia.gov.au/tr...58?q=Kingswood

And would you look at that:
https://search.ipaustralia.gov.au/tr...0273?q=Caprice
https://search.ipaustralia.gov.au/tr...7824?q=Caprice

Originally Posted by mick taylor

I never said they did not own the trademark fool.
Of cause they own it or another does in some cases.

??????

Hate to break it to you, but a vehicle name IS at TRADEMARK.
(Did I really just have to explain that?)

Contradictions, and convenient omissions (about trademarks, and this "dude" you claim came up with all these names and profits from them) - are always good clues to identify somebody who has little clue about reality.

I think your local bar misses you & needs propping up again:

[hackney]

@Commodore Nut.The Commodore name first came into use in 1967,when Opel used it, & as we all know continued with the Commodore lineage in Australia.In saying that are we not getting a bit off topic now? Think it’s time to move on away from Holden.Cheers

[commodorenutt]

I kept trying to steer it back to Ford - see my other trademark links, but it kept being dragged off by a beligerant....

[HO 3]

Wow all this Holden talk on a Falcon X model page, have I slipped into another dimension.

Cheers Mick

[Blue Roo]

I'm wondering, if Mick Taylor is the " Hulk" in disguise.