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The Pub For General Automotive Related Talk |
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08-06-2010, 07:19 PM | #91 | |||
FF.Com.Au Hardcore
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I think Ecoboost will be lucky to get 300 a month. More money for less power, less torque and a bit better fuel economy - usually that is what the base engine is for!! Imagine if Holden made the SIDI 3.6 standard and you had to pay an extra $1500 for the 3.0 with its better fuel economy- essentially the same principle. If the Camry Hybrid is struggling at $34,000 and that has more power, more torque and much better fuel economy than a base Camry then a $44,000 Ecoboost XT will certainly struggle. And anyway wouldnt you pick the LPi LPG if you wanted outstanding economy? I also think very few 4 cylinder only fleets would go Falcon when you have the Hybrid Camry available and other 4 cylinder fleet stalwarts. Who knows could do really well , it would be great to see it succeed but maybe it needs to be a base engine.... |
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08-06-2010, 07:50 PM | #92 | |||
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Holden has nowhere to go with it's 3.0 SIDI, they've played their card and lost because DI engines can only "lean burn" under light loads where as Ecoboost can "part throttle lean boost" due to the increased rates of EGR suppressing detonation... There are quite a few private and government fleets where six cylinder vehicles are not considered because of CO2/ fuel economy limits. Last edited by jpd80; 08-06-2010 at 07:56 PM. |
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08-06-2010, 08:26 PM | #93 | ||||
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Daniel |
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08-06-2010, 08:34 PM | #94 | |||
FF.Com.Au Hardcore
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08-06-2010, 08:37 PM | #95 | |||
FF.Com.Au Hardcore
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I remember people saying the public would never buy a diesel passenger car, the right products can change percpetions. |
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08-06-2010, 08:45 PM | #96 | |||
FF.Com.Au Hardcore
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Lets hope we are both right!! |
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08-06-2010, 08:54 PM | #97 | |||
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BA2 XR8 Rapid M6 Ute - Lid - Tint -18s 226.8rwkW@178kmh/537Nm@140kmh 1/9/2013 14.2@163kmh 23/10/2013 Boss349 built. Not yet run. Waiting on a shell. Retrotech thread http://www.fordforums.com.au/showthr...1363569&page=6 |
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08-06-2010, 09:08 PM | #98 | |||
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BA2 XR8 Rapid M6 Ute - Lid - Tint -18s 226.8rwkW@178kmh/537Nm@140kmh 1/9/2013 14.2@163kmh 23/10/2013 Boss349 built. Not yet run. Waiting on a shell. Retrotech thread http://www.fordforums.com.au/showthr...1363569&page=6 |
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08-06-2010, 09:32 PM | #99 | |||
Guess Who's Back?
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FPV (Tickford according to CarPoint) are delusional sometimes. Everything's great, just don't ask us what the numbers are...
Oh yeah, no Coyote until October. Earliest!!!! Quote:
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The 18th Letter Last edited by R-Design; 08-06-2010 at 09:41 PM. |
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08-06-2010, 09:54 PM | #100 | |||
Fordaholic
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08-06-2010, 10:06 PM | #101 | |||
Geelong FC 07, 09 & 2011
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I also know the current I6 is just as high tech as an ecoboost 4. 4 cylinders dont interest me but i think that it will sell quite well.
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08-06-2010, 10:18 PM | #102 | |||
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I found this comment very interesting...
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08-06-2010, 10:44 PM | #103 | |||
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08-06-2010, 10:53 PM | #104 | |||
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Ego BFII Ghia Titanium Silver E53 X5 4.4i Gunmetal EF XR6. Now retired from active duty. Roses are red. Violets are blue. OS X rocks. Homage to you. |
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08-06-2010, 11:14 PM | #105 | ||
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Ecoboost achieves it goals by using "part throttle lean boost" aided by higher EGR rates to prevent detonation.
It is far more than just another DI turbo I-4, it's the future and a true replacement for displacement. You watch what happens when they start upping the boost and EGR in the next two generations, By 2017 and Gen 3, that 2.0 could be putting out close to 210 Kw and 380 nm, Performance doesn't go away, it just changes its appearance... Last edited by jpd80; 08-06-2010 at 11:19 PM. |
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09-06-2010, 06:57 AM | #106 | |||
Getting it done.....
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Apart from the whole iron block mantra (and that brings positives and negatives), the I6 is a thoroughly modern engine. And very well executed at that, with some of the best in house engine tuning of any mass production engine currently on the market. It has been the pioneer of a range of new Ford tech in recent years alone....DiVCT anyone? Regardless, whether you claim the presence of a given 'feature' is smarter tech or not (and bare in mind alot of it is marketing speak and not engineering fact), its about outcomes. Toyota ran a camry hybrid advertisment with the tagline 'most advanced australian built car'....haven't seen it lately. Possibly GMH had a sook....i dont' know (they have claimed the DI crappytec is the most advanced.....though its hardly local design). Either way, its a moot point when an imported mondeo diesel burn less (yes i know diesel costs more but still) than a hybrid camry. Or a 'unadvanced' 4.0I6 burns less than a 3.0 or 3.6 DI V6.... As for the ecoboost having a price premium....doubt it. Ford may do that if they felt the 'eco' image waranted a bit of price gouging but given the new model status they daren't risk shooting it in the foot straight off. No cost option on high spec models (if they make it available...) and the default engine in low spec (XT etc.). So you end up with a XT with standard I4, with I6/I6LPG a modest price increase (call it $1000). Then a G4/G6 for the same price, and possibly option of the engine in a G6E. Doubt any XR will get it unless they went for a more agressive tune. Wouldn't rule out a R4/R6 (ala utes) setup though thereby replacing the XR6 NA which is really a betrayal of the original XR6 setup (bodykit XT now). Anyone that thinks a mass produced I4T will cost Ford Aus more to put in th car than their own I6 is crazy IMO. At worst they would cost the same. Ford is more likely to use it as an opporutnity to continue the slow increase in price of the I6XT by 'undercutting' the commodore with the EBI4 (by a few hundred). If i had to pick between a EBI4 falcon for $35k and a 3.0 SIDI commodore for $35500 i know which way id go...I6 fan or not....
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09-06-2010, 11:35 AM | #107 | |||
Geelong FC 07, 09 & 2011
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Care to elaborate how the I6 is low tech? I think swordsman hit the nail on the head with regards to the I6 tech and it's acheivements against the 'incredibly advanced' 3.0l sidi engine. It is indeed a modern engine. And I agree with you re the I4T I think it will be a cracker engine.
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09-06-2010, 12:58 PM | #108 | ||
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I don’t know the facts & don’t need to know them..
What I know is the I6 as been an Australia R&D engine for decades & done on very limited budgets. Eco Boost is the latest engine Ford Global has developed for use in nearly all future petrol engines world wide & has been patented by Ford so other can't copy. People don’t try to copy something that is low tech & old!! Maybe Low tech was the wrong word to use to description the I6, but it is fair to say the I4 Eco boast is ahead in terms of the latest & greatest Tech & design thinking.. |
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09-06-2010, 01:02 PM | #109 | ||
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Aren't we getting a bit off topic here?
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igodabigblackshinycar and I relented and allowed a BMW into the garage. |
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09-06-2010, 05:44 PM | #110 | |||
Peter Car
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Alloy blocks, turbos, intercoolers and direct injection aren't fitted to the NA I6, so the extra costs of those items will push the price past the I6. Just look how much more expensive an XR6 Turbo is over an NA XR6, on the BA it was 4-5k. |
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09-06-2010, 07:15 PM | #111 | ||||
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09-06-2010, 10:14 PM | #112 | |||
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10-06-2010, 06:45 AM | #113 | |||
Getting it done.....
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THe issue ford will have is that you can probably charge a bit more (1k or so) for the EB privelege if it is enough to convince private buyers etc it is more 'techy' but you won't have much hope with the fleets. The relative fuel burn advantage of the I4 over the I6 woudl need to be recouped in a the comparitively short time frame the cars would be in the fleet. And their is not much chance of that if it is up against LiLPG. Moreover, if you are competiting against even lower fuel buring medium car 4pots why would you want to jack up the price of the Falcon....it just makes the business case worse. If ford can make money (not much mind) selling XR6s for 35k driveway it can make money on a 36k ecoboost XT....
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11-06-2010, 09:55 PM | #114 | |||
Peter Car
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The final price will obviously vary depending on the exchange rate come release time. |
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11-06-2010, 10:01 PM | #115 | |||
Peter Car
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R&D costs must also be factored in, i'm sure getting the EB engine installed would not have been cheap. This is probably the main reason it will carry a small price premium, specifically when volumes should be lower than I6. |
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12-06-2010, 06:00 AM | #116 | |||
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a premium of $1,000 or $1,500 so over an I-6 is a big hurdle for EB I-4 to overcome.... |
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12-06-2010, 10:36 AM | #117 | |||
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Ego BFII Ghia Titanium Silver E53 X5 4.4i Gunmetal EF XR6. Now retired from active duty. Roses are red. Violets are blue. OS X rocks. Homage to you. |
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12-06-2010, 10:49 AM | #118 | ||
Pity the fool
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Fleets will pay it. Especially govvy fleets.
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Fords I own or have owned: 1970 XW Falcon GT replica | 1970 XW Falcon | 1971 XY Fairmont | 1973 ZG Fairlane | 1986 XF Falcon panel van | 1987 XFII Falcon S-Pack | 1988 XF Falcon GLS ute | 1993 EBII Fairmont V8 | 1996 XG Falcon ute | 2000 AU Falcon wagon | 2004 BA Falcon XT | 2012 SZ Territory Titanium AWD Proud to buy Australian and support Ford Australia through thick and thin |
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12-06-2010, 11:00 AM | #119 | |||
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are they that inept that they think Falcon buyers won't cough up for a V6 Diesel? That to me would be a much easier sell than Ecoboost I-4, an engine with good tech but hard to sell to a mature falcon audience especially with a price premium. |
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12-06-2010, 01:49 PM | #120 | |||
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At 230mill, that would be what, between 1/4 and 1/3 the cost of an entire new Falcon? So going off that train of thought it will have to have a net increase of atleast 25-33% of the total Falcon sales. That would be about 600 - 800 extra sales needed. Is this realistic? |
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