The ultimate question

[geckoGT]

Originally Posted by Polyal

The fact that you even say "boom tish" and gtfpv cant even look at the bigger picture is evidence of the "V8 rules all" mentality. Im feeling some Deja Vu here.

Why are you guys so bothered that both will co exists? Its rubbish that the F6 pulls a high percentage of developmental work because stuff all was need to be done (XR6T donor).

The GT can out sell the F6 all it likes, but they are sales that FPV mightn't of had before it arrived. You cannot say that if the F6 was not around then those people would just buy V8's. The owners have come from further than ford diehards, because Ford die hards usually buy V8's no matter what; heaps of examples of that on this site alone.

Hard to argue that the GT with FPV has been doing a good job for the brand, from a performance perspective the F6 has saved them.

I also didn't realize the F6 is the same price as the GT, but it would be safe to say the new GT will be more expensive than the F6.

Excellent point there, why is there this mentality that everyone must love a V8, FPV should only build V8's like HSV and F6 steals V8 sales?

I have a friend that has a older model WRX STI, which he is going to keep as he is a member of the WRX club and it is a big passion of his. Having said all this he has said that when he buys a large car in the future, which is likely to happen, he is really impressed with the F6. When asked if he would consider the GT, his answer was no, not into V8's. His phrase was "I want a car that gets from A to B and sneezes in between".

V8's are not everything to all people, why not cater for that?

I do agree that perhaps the F6 should be priced and specced a bit lower than GT (with perhaps a healthy options list), perhaps something like GS for example.

[geckoGT]

Originally Posted by 4Vman

If the GT was a better performer than the F6 from the beginning i doubt the F6 would have sold even half of what it has unless it was cheaper...
I bet a large % of F6 customers would have preferred a V8 but wanted the best performing FORD, just look at how many F6 owners on these forums are talking a switch already.
If the new GT out performs the F6 it will harm the F6's viability significantly, its not my wish that this happens at all... its just my opinion based on how i see things panning out... People need to understand this and stop bitting my head off for suggesting it....

Logically there will need to be a reason to choose a F6 over a GT if the GT out performs it, price would be the only thing i can think of... and maybe as Mark has alluded to how well the aftermarket can adapt to either one..

I hate to say it but I can see exactly where you are coming from.

Unfortunately I think FPV may put the F6 in the "can't be bothered" basket once they have the V8 performing and sales reflect that. I think that would be a mistake as the F6 is making a big name for itself and this something that could be exploited rather than neglected.

When you look at the R&D, GT is expensive as it involves the development of a complete engine that is not in standard Ford use, F6 is cheaper as it is just a further development of the existing large volume selling 6T in XR6T, G6ET and Territory Turbo. Why not support this at a lower price range and spec level?

[auxr]

Oh dear, seems to me that FLAPPIST's original poll has evolved into the old 16T v V8 argument - allrighty, which one really has the biggest balls - stay tuned on release date LOL.

[4Vman]

Originally Posted by geckoGT

I hate to say it but I can see exactly where you are coming from.

Unfortunately I think FPV may put the F6 in the "can't be bothered" basket once they have the V8 performing and sales reflect that. I think that would be a mistake as the F6 is making a big name for itself and this something that could be exploited rather than neglected.

When you look at the R&D, GT is expensive as it involves the development of a complete engine that is not in standard Ford use, F6 is cheaper as it is just a further development of the existing large volume selling 6T in XR6T, G6ET and Territory Turbo. Why not support this at a lower price range and spec level?

I agree.. i think the F6 has a place a well, especially as a "price fighter"..

If FPV take over the XR8 id imagine it will be placed somewhere between it and the GT price wise although the 315 badge on the XR8 will confuse things a bit as the F6 is staying at 310.

But you've made some good points too and i think FPV will ultimately rationalize the range to save money like they will do with the utes..

Again, its not my wish that the F6 vanish, nor am i anti I6T, even if i am regularly accused of it. Hey, i even own a FG I6 XR6!

I'm just expressing my views from my perspective.

[geckoGT]

Originally Posted by 4Vman

I'm just expressing my views from my perspective.

Absolutely, and an astute view at that.

I just hope that the F6 retains both sufficient buyer support and corporate support from FPV, and we retain a choice in the range that those in the red corner do not enjoy.

Then it will be a FPV Performance

[Whitey-AMG]

Originally Posted by Professor Farnsworth

plenty of opinions so far, good to see, however this thread is fast turning into a testosterone comparison content.

We will see, when the engine is released.

Well I think in all reality that its really what this is all about !!

Whenever there is a thread started that compares the 6 with the 8 it will always draw plenty of emotion and plenty of bias from both camps.
I think the V8 boys are looking forward to some reciprocal trouncing with the release of the new S/C V8..........its been brewing for quite some time and I think we may have to batten down the hatches if what has been proposed will materialise. As previously posted, I don't really think the new 8 will beat the F6.......but if it does..............there will be plenty of..........

[Bent8]

The F6 has always had an advantage over the GT's because let's face it, forced induction always wins!

Now that both models will be 'charged', it will be a much fairer game.

And it might be a good marketing move for FPV to bring back the "Force6" & "Force8" badges too!

Personally, if someone offered me the choice between a 600hp F6 or a 420hp GT?...I'd take the latter every time...that's how much I like my V8's!

Each to their own, performance isn't always everything...

[Polyal]

I cant understand why people wont think the V8 will make more power or be quicker than the I6?

It has more capacity, in theory should have more torque and power all straight off idle. Now the I6T hardly takes any time to get into its band but the V8 s/c should be instant.

Look at the times that the n/a coyote is pulling, yeah ok the stang is a bit lighter but even with the relative peaky numbers it produces it hammers. Add a s/c and it sorts out the "lack" of bottom end and it will be a weapon.

I truely dont understand all the rubbish that goes on between both types of people, at the end of the day they will produce pretty similar numbers; but the most important thing is atleast we have choice.

If GMH/HSV had any other engine worth slotting into their range then they would do it. The XU6 died a horrible death simply because a stock BA I6 had equivalent performance. I am 100% sure if they had another avenue to persue to create new clients and strengthen there OVERALL sales then they would do it in a heart beat.

[phillyc]

I voted for the GT to be marginally quicker. If both get better & wider tyres then each will be in 12.x second bracket. Getting a half second advantage in that territory (which is seriously fast for a road car) will be incredibly hard.

Some seem to forget that the F6/XR6T both offer a 10% overboost function from the factory too. Which gives them 600-620Nm to potentially play with. No wonder the F6 rivals a 911Turbo with an in-gear 2.7s dash from 80-120kmh!

Either way, Ford & FPV will have an amazing line-up! Lets see some Redblood.

[mcnews]

Originally Posted by 4Vman

If the GT was a better performer than the F6 from the beginning i doubt the F6 would have sold even half of what it has unless it was cheaper...
I bet a large % of F6 customers would have preferred a V8 but wanted the best performing FORD, just look at how many F6 owners on these forums are talking a switch already.
If the new GT out performs the F6 it will harm the F6's viability significantly, its not my wish that this happens at all... its just my opinion based on how i see things panning out... People need to understand this and stop bitting my head off for suggesting it....

Logically there will need to be a reason to choose a F6 over a GT if the GT out performs it, price would be the only thing i can think of... and maybe as Mark has alluded to how well the aftermarket can adapt to either one..

Price and economy will be the only things that might stay in favour of the F6.

And you are correct, this two times XR6T and two time F6 owner would have bought the V8 if it could hold a candle to the Turbo car.

I even was fairly determined to have a change and buy an FG Super Pursuit this time around, drove a 315 GT and was quite shocked at how weak it felt even compared to the 70,000km old BF F6 I had at the time. Thus I didn't want to pay a heap of money and trade in a perfectly good car to go backwards. So although I wanted some of the fruit the SP came with, and had fell in love with the SP in white with black stripes, I just couldn't do it. If it was even remotely close in performance, I would have bought the SP, but you have to be spinning past 4000rpm in the current motor before it wakes up, conversely I rarely ever need to go over 4000rpm in the F6.

The new V8 will not even have to prove quicker than the F6 to win customers over, all it has to do is get close. And for me, and most other people with half a brain, that means more than 0-100 and 1/4 mile times, it means overtaking urge and real world performance. By the way, all four of my turbo cars have never been tuned or modified, suspension and brakes yes, but have never bothered with the engine. In FG I can't see me needing to do it as the tyres have no hope of coping with the standard power and torque. I am quite sure that giving it more would only make the car slower. I got over the drags by the time I was out of my teens.

If the new GT has more power and torque than the F6, it will be almost useless unless it also come with better tyres and suspension. And if they give it more grip it is going to break a lot more stuff, diffs, axles, boxes etc. So just strapping a blower to a new V8 is not going to cut it, the whole driveline will need to be seriously upgraded.

[ltd]

I love my I6T, but I really hope that coyote will be quicker.
I'd put money down on a supercharged G8E-TT today if I could.

[mrbaxr6t]

so many one eyed v8 supporters case and point as I see it is the F6es are at the limits in terms of 1/4 mile times that the tyre width on the rear will allow, having more power on the same rubber I cant see it helping - it will just make it more difficult to drive down the 1/4 mile due to excessive axle tramp and sidestepping as the tyres just cannot take the power fed to them and let go. Now if Ford address this tyre issue for the coyote I give it a whole 10 minutes before somebody slaps the same wheels under an F6 to give it more grip as well. IMHO both cars will be over powered given the grip they have at present. For years many have wanted Ford to go staggered fitment or wider rubber as an option because the cars in their current configuration have too much power. Rubber will be the difference here.

[Whitey-AMG]

Originally Posted by mrbaxr6t

. For years many have wanted Ford to go staggered fitment or wider rubber as an option because the cars in their current configuration have too much power. Rubber will be the difference here.

Not quite

Tyres is only part of the equation.
Suspension tuning , driveline ( trans and diff ) and even the rubber bushes are just as important. Then you have tail shaft NVH issues and the list goes on and on.

Simply bolting on a set of wider rear wheels and tyres may be good for the short term - but these things need to be built to last for 3 years at least !!!!!!

T6 will always be kinder on take off than a S/C V8. The torque transfer is different on WOT from take off. The "potential" for the S/C Coyote is certainly there to embarass the T6......but it is how FPV can find a way to make it hang together which is the real challenge methinks. If they cannot reach their longevity targets.......the new engine package may well be tuned to suit. This will be great for the aftermarket where this engine will come into its own, but for what we are talking about here, I still reckon the F6 will come out on top in a 1/4 mile stoush ( factory stock ).........not because its a better / stronger engine.......but because the Coyote may be "tuned" to be kinder to the overall drivetrain.

[4Vman]

Originally Posted by ESP

I still reckon the F6 will come out on top in a 1/4 mile stoush ( factory stock ).........not because its a better / stronger engine.......but because the Coyote may be "tuned" to be kinder to the overall drivetrain.

So you're saying despite the obvious power, torque and displacement advantage it will have FPV will inexplicably tune coyote to be "kinder" on the driveline than the F6 is???

That makes no sense.. if things are that close to the limit at the very worst wouldnt they de tune it to be identical to the F6???

[4Vman]

Originally Posted by castellan

I don't know what all the fuss is about with the drag race nonsence.
I dont think most people would buy such a car for that crap.

You do make allot of sense...

[Fireblade]

This engine will never embarrass the F6, Ford cannot make it much faster than what the F6 already is (even with no update power increase) without giving themselves head room for future upgrades. With all the changes being made expect the cost to probably be higher for the new gen FPV V8 as there will be more development costs than just the engine, they will have to figure in a better trans at least as the rumour of the torque output is very close to the rated limit of the ZF. Then there is the rest of the driveline and whatever else FPV develop for the new gen.

[Carby]

It's would be nice to think the V8 will be quicker in a straight line, but really it is a little myopic to not look at the whole package.

As it stands the F6 is slower around a racetrack (that's the place that sorts out speed, handling and brakes) than a GT and at the moment the HSV comfortably accounts for the GT. If the Coyote can cover all bases and be quicker (and it should be, being non turboed and therefore provide a progressive power delivery) than that is what will place the car to the forefront and hopefully a vehicle to savour for a long time.

[DJR-351]

I gotta admit I went with the F6 by a smidgen, but that was only a rough guestimate....

I would be more interested in seeing how they perform against each other under a sustained hammering around Bathurst or something like that, never was interested in 1/4 mile stats....

[gtfpv]

Originally Posted by DJR-351

I gotta admit I went with the F6 by a smidgen, but that was only a rough guestimate....

I would be more interested in seeing how they perform against each other under a sustained hammering around Bathurst or something like that, never was interested in 1/4 mile stats....

we can only hope . the FG series GT was not promoted by FPV ford or anyone else or pegged against any other performance car . heres hope the MKII with the coyote will atleast have a challange against the others rather than be tucked away behind F6 BEUROCRATIC BS . a few posts back someone mentions how the GT 315 outperforms the f6 on the track . if this is true it's the only such comment or promotion of the fpv v8's performance that i have heard in 2 whole years . shame shame shame .
as i said earlier i do not believe the new coyote will eclipse the F6 . nor should it . the F6 has acheived cult status just like the GT . IF IT DOES EAT THE F6 than it would be high end pricey and out do the F6 in every other anvenue . i dont think FPV want this for the AUSSIE iconic 6.

[TheZHLANE]

Originally Posted by 4Vman

You do make allot of sense...

i buy v8 to be economical daarrrr

[mik]

Originally Posted by gtfpv

we can only hope . the FG series GT was not promoted by FPV ford or anyone else or pegged against any other performance car . heres hope the MKII with the coyote will atleast have a challange against the others rather than be tucked away behind F6 BEUROCRATIC BS . a few posts back someone mentions how the GT 315 outperforms the f6 on the track . if this is true it's the only such comment or promotion of the fpv v8's performance that i have heard in 2 whole years . shame shame shame .
as i said earlier i do not believe the new coyote will eclipse the F6 . nor should it . the F6 has acheived cult status just like the GT . IF IT DOES EAT THE F6 than it would be high end pricey and out do the F6 in every other anvenue . i dont think FPV want this for the AUSSIE iconic 6.

thats a good point, why not have 2 cult hero cars to offer in the show rooms that both kick ***, why does there have to be a loser? they both outperform red teem , its win win.

[castellan]

Originally Posted by DJR-351

I gotta admit I went with the F6 by a smidgen, but that was only a rough guestimate....

I would be more interested in seeing how they perform against each other under a sustained hammering around Bathurst or something like that, never was interested in 1/4 mile stats....

Same hear!
Who buys a $70000 car to drag race.
Just kids and rat bags dreaming.
There is a lot more to it as to why some one would buy a car then that 1/4 mile rubbish.
Remember the EF XR6 vs XR8 and all the raving of the XR6 times over the 1/4. yes it went well. but that's about it. the XR8 was a way better car to drive. and would hose off the XR6 after the 1/4.
1/4 mile worshipers

[Whitey-AMG]

Originally Posted by 4Vman

So you're saying despite the obvious power, torque and displacement advantage it will have FPV will inexplicably tune coyote to be "kinder" on the driveline than the F6 is???

That makes no sense.. if things are that close to the limit at the very worst wouldnt they de tune it to be identical to the F6???

No

I'm saying that because of the power delivery of Turbo spool v PD S/C , that it may be difficult to get the coyote off the line and then have the same ( or more ) neck snapping power delivery of the turbo after spool up to compensate.

It may be more difficult to achieve what the F6 can with the Coyote simply because with the PD/SC its more of an "on" or "off" type delivery wheras the turbo gradually spools ( albeit very quickly in the F6 ).
S/C = more linear delivery
6T = more Bell curve

So what I'm "guessing" at, is that the Coyote will struggle to keep up with the F6 if its torque is truncated below 2000 RPM to make it kinder to the driveline on take off. It would then basically need to produce MUCH more torque and HP above 2000RPM than the F6 does to compensate or even keep up......let alone beat it !

If they can pull it off.....well done to them. Realistically, my own personal opinion is that it may not be possible.....in stock offering off the showroom floor anyways. In terms of what this package will offer to the aftermarket in terms of pulley changeover and Cuctom tune.......( and there will be MANY MANY buyers that will do this )......it will be a whole different ball game.

[flappist]

Originally Posted by castellan

Same hear!
Who buys a $70000 car to drag race.
Just kids and rat bags dreaming.
There is a lot more to it as to why some one would buy a car then that 1/4 mile rubbish.
Remember the EF XR6 vs XR8 and all the raving of the XR6 times over the 1/4. yes it went well. but that's about it. the XR8 was a way better car to drive. and would hose off the XR6 after the 1/4.
1/4 mile worshipers

Very brave words.

It may be prudent for you to read a bit of history on here with regard to the hobbies and car usage by some of the admins and supermods before casting such aspersions....

[mik]

[QUOTE=castellan]Same hear!
Who buys a $70000 car to drag race.
Just kids and rat bags dreaming.
There is a lot more to it as to why some one would buy a car then that 1/4 mile rubbish.
Remember the EF XR6 vs XR8 and all the raving of the XR6 times over the 1/4. yes it went well. but that's about it. the XR8 was a way better car to drive. and would hose off the XR6 after the 1/4.
1/4 mile worshipers [/QUOTE

we are car enthusiasts(we`ll most of us), likeing better perrforming cars does`nt make us ratbags.

[barra64]

i'd always struggled with the concept of GT flagship being slower than the F6..engine note doesn't worry me that much when my daily driver/rider sounds like a jar full of angry bees..
Rod Barrett is on record as saying the GT will be the quickest australian mass produced car (ie. not GT-H/W427) clearly including F6 so my money is on Rod delivering (by a smidge)..that'll be magazine times as i doubt many journos know how to launch an F6 properly and the GT will be easier for them..

[Transfiguring R]

Crickey.

We know that the power figures will be understated. We know it will have more torque. So the power of the new GT has a good chance to be more than whatever the true power of the F6 currently is. When this thing starts moving, it'll be flying, just like the F6. I bet it will pip the F6, but not by a huge margin over the 1/4 mile.

And, barra64, Rod Barret, if memory serves, was quoted as saying that this will be the most powerful mass production car in Aus, not the quickest.

[barra64]

Yep he did..show's how good my memory is and i was there..

[Transfiguring R]

lol, no worries bud. My memory is like swiss cheese. I've even forgotten my surname once when I filled out a form for a competition. Pretty embarassing crossing out the wrong surname and putting the correct one next to it.

[SpoolMan]

Originally Posted by castellan

Same hear!
Who buys a $70000 car to drag race.
Just kids and rat bags dreaming.
There is a lot more to it as to why some one would buy a car then that 1/4 mile rubbish.
Remember the EF XR6 vs XR8 and all the raving of the XR6 times over the 1/4. yes it went well. but that's about it. the XR8 was a way better car to drive. and would hose off the XR6 after the 1/4.
1/4 mile worshipers

Obviously you don't do to much reading in our performance forums, more people would be using the 1/4 mile as there choice of motor-sport fun than the circuit stuff..