VFACTS May 2010 - Page 5

Joe5619 · 12-06-2010, 09:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jpd80

That's what i mean, Ford has missed the appeal of diesel in the market at every turn,
are they that inept that they think Falcon buyers won't cough up for a V6 Diesel?

That to me would be a much easier sell than Ecoboost I-4, an engine with good tech
but hard to sell to a mature falcon audience especially with a price premium.

Premiun price!! There is a far greater premium price with Diesel, that anything EB4T will have,so your point does not make sense!!

g220ba · 12-06-2010, 10:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by naddis01

At 230mill, that would be what, between 1/4 and 1/3 the cost of an entire new Falcon? So going off that train of thought it will have to have a net increase of atleast 25-33% of the total Falcon sales. That would be about 600 - 800 extra sales needed. Is this realistic?

Keep in mind that $230mil is being spent on 3 drivetrain upgrades, those being the i4t, the LiLpg and the diesel territory so the cost will be shared between the 3. Will it improve sales to the required area to recoup their investment, only time will tell.

The diesel territory should gain plenty of sales given the track record of the segment it's in, The LiLpg has the main issue of public perception of LPG (should still sell well though). The biggest risk has been the i4t, as we've seen all and sundry have had the same opinion of it being a 4 cyl lugging around a 1.6-1.8t car. I don't subscribe to that theory and with word of mouth and good initial advertising explaining the benefits of the engine it should prove a sales success.

All this coupled with performance market being covered by the i6t and the coyote v8 show ford have something for everybody in the falcon and territory market which should prove to work well for them. Brand perception is fords biggest weakness which these new drivetrains coupled with the econetic range of vehicles filtering in slowing should help that. It takes time to change buyers perceptions so lets hope it continues moving forward.

Swordsman88 · 13-06-2010, 01:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by naddis01

I agree. A diesel would be a much easier sell than the Ecoboost in my opinion. Even if the Ecoboost is billed as a premium engine how are they going to convince the average buyer public that it is not just another 4 cyl in a heavy car?

Firstly, the average joe doesn't have a problem with a 4 cylinder in a heavy car...witness the mazda 6, camry etc. They don't know enough about cars to realise the inherent issues that are possible with this sceanrio....ie.. poor performance and relatively high fuel burn even compared to bigger engined 6 cylinders models.

BUT, EB I4 doesn't have these problems. The die hards will stay with the 6pot, which will ultimately be faster and still have very good fuel burn for its capability, but the rest of the market DON"T CARE what drives the car. As long as it has a low fuel burn and adequate performance (which it will) they will buy it in significant numbers....as will fleets. Just ask Holden with the 3.0 SIDI...they still sell omegas even with arguably inferior performance then what they had before....and very dubious real world fuel economy improvements.

Provided the ADR figures are comensurate with its '4 cylinder' tag (which they will...or close enough) and its real world economy is also impressive then bobs your uncle. IN fact the 'it must be slow' problem will be bigger to overcome then any concerns over economy. Alot of people will assume (espeically those that remember the horrid 4cylinder commodore) that a 4pot falcon will be a total slug. One blat from the dealerhsip will fix that problem....a hell of alot easier than Holden trying to (unsuccessfully) convince everyone the 3.0SIDI really does burn less fuel than its competitors...when it doesnt....

jpd80 · 13-06-2010, 02:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Swordsman88

Firstly, the average joe doesn't have a problem with a 4 cylinder in a heavy car...witness the mazda 6, camry etc. They don't know enough about cars to realise the inherent issues that are possible with this sceanrio....ie.. poor performance and relatively high fuel burn even compared to bigger engined 6 cylinders models.

BUT, EB I4 doesn't have these problems. The die hards will stay with the 6pot, which will ultimately be faster and still have very good fuel burn for its capability, but the rest of the market DON"T CARE what drives the car. As long as it has a low fuel burn and adequate performance (which it will) they will buy it in significant numbers....as will fleets. Just ask Holden with the 3.0 SIDI...they still sell omegas even with arguably inferior performance then what they had before....and very dubious real world fuel economy improvements.

Provided the ADR figures are comensurate with its '4 cylinder' tag (which they will...or close enough) and its real world economy is also impressive then bobs your uncle. IN fact the 'it must be slow' problem will be bigger to overcome then any concerns over economy. Alot of people will assume (espeically those that remember the horrid 4cylinder commodore) that a 4pot falcon will be a total slug. One blat from the dealerhsip will fix that problem....a hell of alot easier than Holden trying to (unsuccessfully) convince everyone the 3.0SIDI really does burn less fuel than its competitors...when it doesnt....

Agree 100%
Ecoboost 2.0 Falcon has two goals, beat Omega's 1)fuel economy and 2)performance.
Maybe another one of those 1,000 klm runs around Bathurst or a Melbourne to Sydney run?

Falc'man · 13-06-2010, 02:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jpd80

Agree 100%
Ecoboost 2.0 Falcon has two goals, beat Omega's 1)fuel economy and 2)performance.
Maybe another one of those 1,000 klm runs around Bathurst or a Melbourne to Sydney run?

That's the thing, it already does that anyway with the 4.0.

SteveJH · 13-06-2010, 02:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by naddis01

At 230mill, that would be what, between 1/4 and 1/3 the cost of an entire new Falcon? So going off that train of thought it will have to have a net increase of atleast 25-33% of the total Falcon sales. That would be about 600 - 800 extra sales needed. Is this realistic?

No, because it isnt a Ford Australia Specific Engine. This engine will presumably also go into Mondeo, Fiesta, Focus etc.

jpd80 · 13-06-2010, 03:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Falc'man

That's the thing, it already does that anyway with the 4.0.

Nothing like rubbing it in though......

Falc'man · 13-06-2010, 03:04 AM

^^ absolutely not

Quote:

Originally Posted by SteveJH

No, because it isnt a Ford Australia Specific Engine. This engine will presumably also go into Mondeo, Fiesta, Focus etc.

Actually the correct answer is 84ltd's. The money spent includes the three motors, not the one motor on the 4 cars. They would have spent - for arguments sake - one third of the 230m on the eb4, to engineer it to suit Falcon.

SteveJH · 13-06-2010, 03:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Falc'man

^^ absolutely not

Actually the correct answer is 84ltd's. The money spent includes the three motors, not the one motor on the 4 cars. They would have spent - for arguments sake - one third of the 230m on the eb4, to engineer it to suit Falcon.

My only excuse is that I missed that post....

**russellw** · 13-06-2010, 06:02 AM

As noted above, if the marketing campaign builds on the appeal of the recent ones then there is little reason to expect that the EcoBoost engine will not succeed. There are plenty of potential buyers who couldn't care less about what is under the bonnet or even which end of the car is driving as long as it meets their appearance and fuel efficiency targets.

I still suspect that the bigger problem for Ford is overcoming the issues in the dealer network but I'm not getting started on that one again. Suffice it to say that if they plan on getting conquest sales from Mazda/Toyota rather than just Holden (where the network is just as bad if not worse) then some major improvements are going to be needed.

Cheers
Russ

jpd80 · 13-06-2010, 08:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by russellw

As noted above, if the marketing campaign builds on the appeal of the recent ones then there is little reason to expect that the EcoBoost engine will not succeed. There are plenty of potential buyers who couldn't care less about what is under the bonnet or even which end of the car is driving as long as it meets their appearance and fuel efficiency targets.

I still suspect that the bigger problem for Ford is overcoming the issues in the dealer network but I'm not getting started on that one again. Suffice it to say that if they plan on getting conquest sales from Mazda/Toyota rather than just Holden (where the network is just as bad if not worse) then some major improvements are going to be needed.

Cheers
Russ

Good post Russ,Perception is crucial to potential buyers and the Falcon EB I-4 is an opportunity to
change the way Ford and it's dealerships are seen. If Ford could win back some of it's estranged
buyers as well as attracting new buyers with a fuel efficient and fun big car like the Falcon EB I-4
then they would have pulled off a major coup.

Ford has a huge advantage by tapping into One Ford and snaring the 2.0 Ecoboost
and TDCI V6. I can see both the EB20 Falcon and TDCI Territory being attractive
to other markets, maybe exports are back on the table...

In all fairness to Holden, I just don't see them having the global logistics to make
a DI Turbo I-4, SIDI 30 turbo or even a 3.0 V6 Diesel cost effective for the Commodore.
Competition is good for the breed and also the local manufacturing industry so I hope
that Ford's actions will now spur them on to prove me completely wrong.

naddis01 · 13-06-2010, 11:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 84ltd

Keep in mind that $230mil is being spent on 3 drivetrain upgrades, those being the i4t, the LiLpg and the diesel territory so the cost will be shared between the 3. Will it improve sales to the required area to recoup their investment, only time will tell.

Fair enough. The way jpd80 said it, it came across as $230 mill just for the Ecoboost. I thought $230 was a little high for just the Ecoboost.

naddis01 · 17-06-2010, 08:37 PM

I posted some of these in another thread, but I thought I would put them in this one as well as it is a more appropriate thread to discuss them.

These are Year-To-Date figures....

Ford Falcon - 13,349

Private - 2,274
Business (small fleet) - 4,133
Business (large fleet) - 1,737
Rental - 2,744
Government - 1,528
Not For Profit Organisation - 414
Other - 519

Holden Commodore - 18,428

Private - 4,972
Business (small fleet) - 6,114
Business (large fleet) - 1,397
Rental - 1,451
Government - 3,005
Not For Profit Organisation - 185
Other - 1,304

Toyota Camry - 6,825

Private - 1,969
Business (small fleet) - 794
Business (large fleet) - 722
Rental - 664
Government - 1,424
Not For Profit Organisation - 868
Other - 384

Toyota Camry Hybrid - 2,273 (Over and above regular Camry figures and from the Feb launch)

Private - 400
Business (small fleet) - 485
Business (large fleet) - 209
Rental - 239
Government - 619
Not For Profit Organisation - 105
Other - 216

Toyota Hilux - 3,665

Private - 680
Business (small fleet) - 1,587
Business (large fleet) - 804
Rental - 189
Government - 335
Other - 70

The biggest things I see in those figures is that Commodore has more private sales in both outright and percentage terms. The other thing to note that the supposed fleet queen Camry (regular and hybrid) sells more privately in both outright numbers and percentage terms compared to Falcon. So much for the Falcon being the private buyers choice.

Brazen · 17-06-2010, 08:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by naddis01

I posted some of these in another thread, but I thought I would put them in this one as well as it is a more appropriate thread to discuss them.

These are Year-To-Date figures....

Ford Falcon - 13,349

Private - 2,274
Business (small fleet) - 4,133
Business (large fleet) - 1,737
Rental - 2,744
Government - 1,528
Not For Profit Organisation - 414
Other - 519

Holden Commodore - 18,428

Private - 4,972
Business (small fleet) - 6,114
Business (large fleet) - 1,397
Rental - 1,451
Government - 3,005
Not For Profit Organisation - 185
Other - 1,304

Toyota Camry - 6,825

Private - 1,969
Business (small fleet) - 794
Business (large fleet) - 722
Rental - 664
Government - 1,424
Not For Profit Organisation - 868
Other - 384

Toyota Camry Hybrid - 2,273 (Over and above regular Camry figures and from the Feb launch)

Private - 400
Business (small fleet) - 485
Business (large fleet) - 209
Rental - 239
Government - 619
Not For Profit Organisation - 105
Other - 216

Toyota Hilux - 3,665

Private - 680
Business (small fleet) - 1,587
Business (large fleet) - 804
Rental - 189
Government - 335
Other - 70

The biggest things I see in those figures is that Commodore has more private sales in both outright and percentage terms. The other thing to note that the supposed fleet queen Camry (regular and hybrid) sells more privately in both outright numbers and percentage terms compared to Falcon. So much for the Falcon being the private buyers choice.

Thanks for posting that. Although I think the Hilux is for one month?

Really interesting, I thought camry was the fleet queen obviously I was wrong.

Naddis01, do you have figures for Territory?

**Fordman1** · 17-06-2010, 09:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by naddis01

. The other thing to note that the supposed fleet queen Camry (regular and hybrid) sells more privately in both outright numbers and percentage terms compared to Falcon. So much for the Falcon being the private buyers choice.

It shows that "user chosers" are the biggest demographic for new cars, and that most would rather NOT drive a Camry ....

naddis01 · 17-06-2010, 09:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brazen

Thanks for posting that. Although I think the Hilux is for one month?

Really interesting, I thought camry was the fleet queen obviously I was wrong.

Naddis01, do you have figures for Territory?

Oops, so it is.

No I don't have Territory figures sorry.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Barraxr8

It shows that "user chosers" are the biggest demographic for new cars, and that most would rather NOT drive a Camry ....

Maybe so, but wouldn't user choosers essentially be getting a fleet discount?

Franco Cozzo · 17-06-2010, 09:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Swordsman88

Firstly, the average joe doesn't have a problem with a 4 cylinder in a heavy car...witness the mazda 6, camry etc. ]

Honda Accord Euro, 1500kg+ car with a 4 cylinder engine.

Joe5619 · 18-06-2010, 12:25 PM

With Ford only selling 2274 Falcons over 5 months to Private buyers.. That equals to 454.8 per month..

2 points from that..
1) There was a topic not long ago asking why does the Mondeo not sell. It properly doesn't sell that badly compared with the Falcon Private vs private when you look at it more closely.
2) Is the Fiesta now Ford's best selling car to the Private sector?

vztrt · 18-06-2010, 01:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joe5619

With Ford only selling 2274 Falcons over 5 months to Private buyers.. That equals to 454.8 per month..

2 points from that..
1) There was a topic not long ago asking why does the Mondeo not sell. It properly doesn't sell that badly compared with the Falcon Private vs private when you look at it more closely.
2) Is the Fiesta now Ford's best selling car to the Private sector?

Mondeo is becoming a fleet car.

Fiesta's profit to private buyers would be about as good as Falcons profit to Fleets.

Joe5619 · 18-06-2010, 06:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vztrt

Fiesta's profit to private buyers would be about as good as Falcons profit to Fleets.

unless you work for Ford & have all the financal information avaiable to you, all you're doing is creating more "here say".. You can't say any of that is true!!!

vztrt · 18-06-2010, 06:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joe5619

unless you work for Ford & have all the financal information avaiable to you, all you're doing is creating more "here say".. You can't say any of that is true!!!

If you think Fiesta turns any sorta real profit then your kidding yourself.

Joe5619 · 18-06-2010, 06:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vztrt

If you think Fiesta turns any sorta real profit then your kidding yourself.

I have not idea (just like you), so I'm not going to say either way!!

Just like so manke people on here kept telling me, Falcon does not have big flleet sales.. The real data comes out to proves the oppiste. This is why you shouldn't be commenting on things you truelly dont have an answer for!!

jpd80 · 18-06-2010, 07:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joe5619

I have not idea (just like you), so I'm not going to say either way!!

Just like so manke people on here kept telling me, Falcon does not have big flleet sales.. The real data comes out to proves the oppiste. This is why you shouldn't be commenting on things you truelly dont have an answer for!!

Be careful, Large and small Fleet sales also include novated lease buyers.
I would suspect that both Holden and Ford have a much larger hidden
private buyer numbers than the raw data reveals.

naddis01 · 18-06-2010, 08:52 PM

Would they be receiving a fleet discount?

jpd80 · 18-06-2010, 09:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by naddis01

Would they be receiving a fleet discount?

They get special pricing but "discounts" are not much better than what the public gets with
vehicles like XR6/G6 Specials. The major benefit is that all figures and payments for a fully maintained
lease including fuel is worked out in pre tax dollars. So someone in a highish tax bracket who
wants a new car anyway can get a real benefit.

Franco Cozzo · 18-06-2010, 09:39 PM

The Fiesta is selling like hotcakes, I see them around everywhere now.

jpd80 · 18-06-2010, 09:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Big Damo

The Fiesta is selling like hotcakes, I see them around everywhere now.

Light car sales for May is very interesting, the gap between 3rd and 7th place is narrow...
Another 130 sales and Fiesta would be t3rd behind Getz and Yaris...

Getz 1,957
Yaris 1,883
Mazda 2 1,130
Swift 1,115
Fiesta 1,004
Barina 904
Rio 888

naddis01 · 18-06-2010, 10:07 PM

If Fiesta can keep its upward trend from the past 12 months going that won't take too much longer.

Road_Warrior · 18-06-2010, 11:04 PM

I'm seeing a few of them around too. Unfortunately, I'm seeing a few too many of them...bent...at Pickles auctions.

vztrt · 19-06-2010, 12:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joe5619

I have not idea (just like you), so I'm not going to say either way!!

When I did work there I knew the small cars had small profits, Ford US has come out and said that the small cars they sell have little profit for them. I don't need their profit and loss statement to know their isn't that much of a profit margin.