The ultimate question

[GT450]

You speak for yourself Spoolman i, like a lot of motorsport fans, visit these forums and don't think the quarter mile is the bees knees. I have been watching motorsport since the 60s and the last drag i saw in the flesh was at Adelaide International in 1987, that's not to say i don't mind watching it but it wont get my money anyday soon, on the other hand i travel all over the country for circuit racing. As we are constantly reminded on here , everyone is entitled to their opinon including Castellan and of course yourself.
Cheers
GT450

[dave289]

To give you some sort of idea on the times ,the coyote in the mustang with 307 kw and 529nm of torque will do 0-100 in just under 5 seconds ,this cars weight is about 1675 kg. i think the coyote engine is much lighter than the boss. once the superghargers on it should be slightly quicker than the f6 with the magazine drones at the helm.

[4Vman]

Originally Posted by dave289

To give you some sort of idea on the times ,the coyote in the mustang with 307 kw and 529nm of torque will do 0-100 in just under 5 seconds ,this cars weight is about 1675 kg. i think the coyote engine is much lighter than the boss. once the superghargers on it should be slightly quicker than the f6 with the magazine drones at the helm.

The Australian mags seem to do their tests with a passenger,1/2 a tank of fuel , air filter fitted, no traction compound, spare wheel in the boot, normal tyre pressures etc too which goes some way to explaining the differences.
Apart from the 0-100 times, and in gear acceleration times I'll be more interested to see the comparative lap times around Winton or Calder where brakes and handling and not just acceleration reflect the true worth of these cars..

[dave289]

Originally Posted by 4Vman

The Australian mags seem to do their tests with a passenger,1/2 a tank of fuel , air filter fitted, no traction compound, spare wheel in the boot, normal tyre pressures etc too which goes some way to explaining the differences.
Apart from the 0-100 times, and in gear acceleration times I'll be more interested to see the comparative lap times around Winton or Calder where brakes and handling and not just acceleration reflect the true worth of these cars..

Time will tell 4v ,time will tell, not long to go now.

[DJR-351]

Originally Posted by dave289

Time will tell 4v ,time will tell, not long to go now.

Probably a stupid question, but what is the date for release....

[Fireblade]

The thing with 1/4 mile racing as it doesn't destroy as much of the car as circuit racing, if I went 1/4 mile racing in my F6 I would be up for a new set of rear tyres after the session if I didn't have a set dedicated for it. If I took it to a circuit which I really do want to do, I would be up for a full new set of tyres (Fronts and rears) a set of brake pads and probably rotors plus a fluid change and more. These cars are near on 2 tonne or more with driver and fuel on board and that hurts when caning around a track. Most new cars if raced would most probably be used for the strip rather than a track thats not to say nobody would track them but theres less expense for 1/4 mile racing. If the current F6 can beat a current HSV around a circuit then I'm sure it will hold its own (That doesn't mean it will beat it) against the new one. Anyway, most would be modded if being used for either application so that takes that out of the equation as that depends on the hip pocket of the owner. For the rest its bragging rights at the pub with your mates.

[4Vman]

Originally Posted by DJR-351

Probably a stupid question, but what is the date for release....

There isnt one yet, FPV haven't set a date yet which is why technically there is no "delay"...

[DJR-351]

Originally Posted by 4Vman

There isnt one yet, FPV haven't set a date yet which is why technically there is no "delay"...

Oh well hopefully not too much longer, I would really like to see at least one in the 2011 Bathurst 12 hour, probably be 2012 tho....

[dave289]

Originally Posted by DJR-351

Probably a stupid question, but what is the date for release....

september I believe, they will sell boss till then.

[SpoolMan]

Originally Posted by GT450

You speak for yourself Spoolman i, like a lot of motorsport fans, visit these forums and don't think the quarter mile is the bees knees.0

I didn't say it was the bees knees.
For participation rate on this forum and 2 other popular Aussie forums drag racing is far more popular than other forms of motor-sport, I am not talking keyboard racers.
I am talking those that go to the track and have a go.
Our drag meet next week at HPR was closed off last week 107 cars on the list, we just cant take anymore.
Drag racing are by far our best supported events on AFF.
http://www.fordforums.com.au/showthr...30#post3164230

[4Vman]

Originally Posted by SpoolMan

I didn't say it was the bees knees.
For participation rate on this forum and 2 other popular Aussie forums drag racing is far more popular than other forms of motor-sport, I am not talking keyboard racers.
I am talking those that go to the track and have a go.
Our drag meet next week at HPR was closed off last week 107 cars on the list, we just cant take anymore.
Drag racing are by far our best supported events on AFF.
http://www.fordforums.com.au/showthr...30#post3164230

Great result Mark, out of curiosity when was the last AFF track circuit day?

[SpoolMan]

Originally Posted by 4Vman

Great result Mark, out of curiosity when was the last AFF track circuit day?

The last 2 were canceled due to lack of interest, so it been sometime since we have gone to organise anymore, the cost of these days is more expensive and very hard on your car especially brakes, this may be the reasons why.


Deca skid pan days are also very popular but we had to cancel the last one of them as well due to not being able get insurance.

4Vman we are yet to see you at any events, do you participate in any forms of having some fun with your cars, cruises, drag, circuit etc?

[Quicksand]

Originally Posted by 4Vman

In magazine or "real world" conditions the F6 is a low to mid 13 second car.....
People seem to forget the times achieved at the strip are greatly aided but sticky track conditions, tyre pressures, weight minimisation and launch techniques...
In magazine hands were taking flat/low 13's, or maybe high 12's for the GT to be significantly "quicker" apples V apples.....

It's my understanding based on the OP that the spirit of this thread is 1/4 mile drag racing at a professional drag strip. So the reference to the times produced by a stock F6 at a professional track are highly relevant to this discussion. As quoted in the OP:

Originally Posted by flappist

So, in the near future, a bog standard FG2 GT lines up against a FG2 F6 and the xmas tree turns green. What happens next.......

As you would know, the 'Christmas Tree' term is referred to the lighting system used at professional drag strips. It will be a big deal for FPV to provide a production car that can out do the current iteration of the F6. As mentioned by Monty, i cannot see Coyote pulling high 11's at the 1/4 mile but will gladly eat my words.

Originally Posted by galaxy xr8

Your making a BIG assumption there, when nobody has even set an eyelid on a Coyote from Ford/FPV Aus yet.

Isn't the whole point of this thread about assumptions?

Originally Posted by 4Vman

So you're saying despite the obvious power, torque and displacement advantage it will have FPV will inexplicably tune coyote to be "kinder" on the driveline than the F6 is???

That makes no sense.. if things are that close to the limit at the very worst wouldnt they de tune it to be identical to the F6???

Have power and torque figures been confirmed and released by FPV? Just curious...

[HEMI POWER]

Originally Posted by GT450

You speak for yourself Spoolman i, like a lot of motorsport fans, visit these forums and don't think the quarter mile is the bees knees. I have been watching motorsport since the 60s and the last drag i saw in the flesh was at Adelaide International in 1987, that's not to say i don't mind watching it but it wont get my money anyday soon, on the other hand i travel all over the country for circuit racing. As we are constantly reminded on here , everyone is entitled to their opinon including Castellan and of course yourself.
Cheers
GT450

Hi GT450 i think spooly was refering to those who actually go out and race not watch it on TV ect........ I love watching circuit racing but prefer to Drag race my cars, simply because i can drive better in a straight line

[4Vman]

Originally Posted by SpoolMan

The last 2 were canceled due to lack of interest, so it been sometime since we have gone to organise anymore, the cost of these days is more expensive and very hard on your car especially brakes, this may be the reasons why.


Deca skid pan days are also very popular but we had to cancel the last one of them as well due to not being able get insurance.

4Vman we are yet to see you at any events, do you participate in any forms of having some fun with your cars, cruises, drag, circuit etc?

Thanks Mark, yes it can get hard and expensive to organise circuits, drags are far simpler to organise.
Would love to have the time to get more involved in cruises again and motorsport stuff but weekends are flat out, and ive sold my toys too!

[GT450]

Yes Hemi i take your point and i would probably agree that more members would be likely to try to drag their car than circuit race it. It's a lot cheaper getting set up for that purpose too i would think.
As for your driving you are right again you are definitely best in a straight line altough i have seen you travel sideways too on the odd occasion.I hope the colds is getting better mate.
Cheers
Gt 450

[castellan]

[QUOTE=mik]

Originally Posted by castellan

Same hear!
Who buys a $70000 car to drag race.
Just kids and rat bags dreaming.
There is a lot more to it as to why some one would buy a car then that 1/4 mile rubbish.
Remember the EF XR6 vs XR8 and all the raving of the XR6 times over the 1/4. yes it went well. but that's about it. the XR8 was a way better car to drive. and would hose off the XR6 after the 1/4.
1/4 mile worshipers [/QUOTE

we are car enthusiasts(we`ll most of us), likeing better perrforming cars does`nt make us ratbags.

I am a car enthusiasts to. and like better performing cars to. i just see a lot more to it, then just the 1/4 mile side of it. i am interested in the 1/4 times. but it does not just stop there.
The rat bags mentality i was referring to was only kids or dreamers would think of owning a $70000 car, that only worship the 1/4 times.
Like if a sales man would be left scratching his head when selling say a new XR turbo 6 falcon vs XR 8. and when the dude buys the XR 8 he can't figure it out why. as he informed the buyer the XR 6 is faster over the 1/4 mile.

It always has riled me with Aussie car magazines that they get away with substandard test results. compared with Europe who show the complete test results. it's like watching boxing when the fight has been called off to early.

[flappist]

One of the major reasons why "amateur" drag racing rather than "amateur" circuit racing is used as the measuring stick for "pub talk" is that a significantly higher driving skillset is required to go fast on a track with corners.

As the majority of car enthusiasts are nowhere near as good at driving as they think they are (and the worse the driver the angrier they get when you point it out) and any idiot (well almost) can stand on the go pedal in an auto and keep it relatively straight for 12-14 seconds, drag racing has become the de facto lingua populi celeritas.

By just giving huge piles of money to a performance shop the most incompetent driver could beat Craig Lowndes or Mark Winterbottom over the 400m in the "fully sick road registered family car" category on a test and tune day.

Hence why I used this form of competition in the "ultimate question".

It is all about the car not the driver........

[superpursuit83]

Originally Posted by F6 FOON

The thing with 1/4 mile racing as it doesn't destroy as much of the car as circuit racing, if I went 1/4 mile racing in my F6 I would be up for a new set of rear tyres after the session if I didn't have a set dedicated for it. If I took it to a circuit which I really do want to do, I would be up for a full new set of tyres (Fronts and rears) a set of brake pads and probably rotors plus a fluid change and more. These cars are near on 2 tonne or more with driver and fuel on board and that hurts when caning around a track. Most new cars if raced would most probably be used for the strip rather than a track thats not to say nobody would track them but theres less expense for 1/4 mile racing. If the current F6 can beat a current HSV around a circuit then I'm sure it will hold its own (That doesn't mean it will beat it) against the new one. Anyway, most would be modded if being used for either application so that takes that out of the equation as that depends on the hip pocket of the owner. For the rest its bragging rights at the pub with your mates.

I would beg to differ on this mate.

Circuit racing is much easier on the vehicle as a whole than the punishment they get when drag racing.
Fair enough to set up for the circuit will cost a little in tyres and brakes, but a fast driver is a smooth driver and the vehicle lasts longer. Dragging costs money too and I normally hurt something when dragging. When at Wanneroo I race ALL night and cost per lap is fairly cheap. Providing you stay on the track.

[4Vman]

Originally Posted by flappist

One of the major reasons why "amateur" drag racing rather than "amateur" circuit racing is used as the measuring stick for "pub talk" is that a significantly higher driving skillset is required to go fast on a track with corners.

As the majority of car enthusiasts are nowhere near as good at driving as they think they are (and the worse the driver the angrier they get when you point it out) and any idiot (well almost) can stand on the go pedal in an auto and keep it relatively straight for 12-14 seconds, drag racing has become the de facto lingua populi celeritas.

By just giving huge piles of money to a performance shop the most incompetent driver could beat Craig Lowndes or Mark Winterbottom over the 400m in the "fully sick road registered family car" category on a test and tune day.

Hence why I used this form of competition in the "ultimate question".

It is all about the car not the driver........

yes.. very true.

[Auslandau]

Originally Posted by flappist

....... Hence why I used this form of competition in the "ultimate question".

It is all about the car not the driver........

... and hence why it is used by the mags. The majority of people looking at these type of mags know that 12 secs is damn quick .... without anything else being written or mentioned. If it was 1.23.01 around Winton .... you would want to know a whole lot more before you said thats quick, slow or otherwise. Its just an easy way to put things in perspective.

Its not just here either ...... the war between GM & Ford in the states at the moment is becoming very silly splitting straws over both KW badging and 400m speed.

Mustang beats Camaro by 2 kw's so Camaro re-tested and without touching the thing finds 5 more KW's!

Mustang beats Camaro on the 1/4 mile so what can Camaro do about that ..... not a damn thing!

The marketeers for Camaro "Our car has more KW's than Mustang"

The marketeers for Mustang "Our car is faster than Camaro over the 1/4 mile"

Now ... which sounds better.



| [/url] |

[Quicksand]

Originally Posted by flappist

One of the major reasons why "amateur" drag racing rather than "amateur" circuit racing is used as the measuring stick for "pub talk" is that a significantly higher driving skillset is required to go fast on a track with corners.

For me, the 1/4 mile is a replication of 'the street'.

It's that scenario where by chance or design you find yourself in pole position at the street lights against an arch enemy (such as any Holden ever built). The hands go sweaty, the heart starts to race, the adrenaline starts to flow, the lights go green and it's either a humiliating white wash or you are neck and neck until you both back off in respect and 'somehow' manage to line up together again at the next set of lights to settle the score.

Drag racing at the strip is a replication of that simple grudge match, that measuring stick of groins (yes i will admit it), that quick burst of juvenile release that you promise your parents you never do in their car.

It's simple, it's satisfying, and yes, it doesn't take a huge amount of effort (in terms of $$, time, skill, knowledge, etc).

Thats how i think most people feel about it, and why this topic is so relevant on this forum.

T

[4Vman]

The only problem i have with using 1/4 times to evaluate cars like these is they only tell you a small part about the broader overall performance of the cars...
Acceleration from a standing start is only part of what these cars represent; Safety, handling, braking and comfort are equally or more important to most consumers spending $70+K....

[BOSHOG]

Originally Posted by 4Vman

The only problem i have with using 1/4 times to evaluate cars like these is they only tell you a small part about the broader overall performance of the cars...
Acceleration from a standing start is only part of what these cars represent; Safety, handling, braking and comfort are equally or more important to most consumers spending $70+K....

agreed, handling and braking were the 2 biggest faults i found with my XR8, for me the engine wasnt the issue so im not too fussed about the coyote release, im focusing on the rest of the "package"

[Auslandau]

Originally Posted by 4Vman

The only problem i have with using 1/4 times to evaluate cars like these is they only tell you a small part about the broader overall performance of the cars...
Acceleration from a standing start is only part of what these cars represent; Safety, handling, braking and comfort are equally or more important to most consumers spending $70+K....

But so does just quoting KW's and is nearly the be all and end all of marketing it seems at the moment ..... higher badge on the boot means nothing without the complete package ..... but to many it is the fastest ..... even if it might weigh 2 tonne and handle like poo

The reason Shelby had picked GT350 .. is because it sounded faster than anything else at the time ..... so GT500 sounds even faster. All about marketing



| [/url] |

[4Vman]

Originally Posted by Auslandau

But so does just quoting KW's and is nearly the be all and end all of marketing it seems at the moment ..... higher badge on the boot means nothing without the complete package ..... but to many it is the fastest ..... even if it might weigh 2 tonne and handle like poo

The reason Shelby had picked GT350 .. is because it sounded faster than anything else at the time ..... so GT500 sounds even faster. All about marketing

Actually the "350" in GT350 was chosen because it was the length of the production line, and "500" was chosen because it was the distance from the office to the factory...

True story.

I do agree though that badge marketing is alive and well.. especially at the pub...

[Grobbo]

Originally Posted by flappist

One of the major reasons why "amateur" drag racing rather than "amateur" circuit racing is used as the measuring stick for "pub talk" is that a significantly higher driving skillset is required to go fast on a track with corners.

As the majority of car enthusiasts are nowhere near as good at driving as they think they are (and the worse the driver the angrier they get when you point it out) and any idiot (well almost) can stand on the go pedal in an auto and keep it relatively straight for 12-14 seconds, drag racing has become the de facto lingua populi celeritas.

By just giving huge piles of money to a performance shop the most incompetent driver could beat Craig Lowndes or Mark Winterbottom over the 400m in the "fully sick road registered family car" category on a test and tune day.

Hence why I used this form of competition in the "ultimate question".

It is all about the car not the driver........

Have you actually done a days drag racing?

I used to take my Skyline to the circuit and I was nailing consistently handy times within a few laps... After a year of going to the same circuit, (and with some expert training) and no mods to the car I wasn't even a second quicker.

Took my XR8 to the AFF drags thinking it would be a piece of cake and boy was I wrong - I was really surprised by how hard it was to consistently nail a sweet time.

In fact I never got close to my one best time again and hence set my DYO too low and lost the final because of this.

I had an awesome day and got heaps of track time.

I have set my car up to handle a track day but to be honest I think I'm going just do drags, with the ocassional blast on a certain twisty section of road at 8/10ths - more fun than the track I reckon!

On the track I'm just constantly reminded I'm driving a car designed for the road...

[Quicksand]

Originally Posted by Polyal

I cant understand why people wont think the V8 will make more power or be quicker than the I6?

It has more capacity, in theory should have more torque and power all straight off idle. Now the I6T hardly takes any time to get into its band but the V8 s/c should be instant.

Look at the times that the n/a coyote is pulling, yeah ok the stang is a bit lighter but even with the relative peaky numbers it produces it hammers. Add a s/c and it sorts out the "lack" of bottom end and it will be a weapon.

I truely dont understand all the rubbish that goes on between both types of people, at the end of the day they will produce pretty similar numbers; but the most important thing is atleast we have choice.

If GMH/HSV had any other engine worth slotting into their range then they would do it. The XU6 died a horrible death simply because a stock BA I6 had equivalent performance. I am 100% sure if they had another avenue to persue to create new clients and strengthen there OVERALL sales then they would do it in a heart beat.

Well, according to Redbook the current 2010 FG GT has a kerb weight of 1837KG (with 6 spd manual). According to Motor Trend the 2010 Mustang weighs in at 3555 pounds = 1,612.52088 KG.

The Coyote is rumoured to provide a 50KG weight saving (without a supercharger), so the FG GT is still heavier than the Mustang by:

(1837 - 50) - 1612.5 = 174.5KG

I dont think that is a bit lighter than the FG GT.

What IS very interesting is that the potential weight of the new GT (without a supercharger) may be very close to the weight of the 2010 FG F6. According to Redbook the FG F6 (with 6 spd manual) has a kerb weight of 1771KG which is just 16KG lighter than the potential weight of the new GT with the Coyote in Naturally Aspirated form. Whack on a supercharger (how much does the supercharger weigh?) and you whack on more weight but obviously this is accounted for to some degree with the extra power through forced induction. Still...it's more weight than the F6. The supercharger provides instant torque, but the launch control feature in the manual turbo's allows for boost off the line too.

It's going to be a tough call in terms of 'magazine' times, but i am still unsure whether the new GT, supercharged or not, can match the 12.3's that stock FG F6's are currently getting at a professional drag strip.

[burnz]

Originally Posted by Grobbo

Have you actually done a days drag racing?

I used to take my Skyline to the circuit and I was nailing consistently handy times within a few laps... After a year of going to the same circuit, (and with some expert training) and no mods to the car I wasn't even a second quicker.

Took my XR8 to the AFF drags thinking it would be a piece of cake and boy was I wrong - I was really surprised by how hard it was to consistently nail a sweet time.

In fact I never got close to my one best time again and hence set my DYO too low and lost the final because of this.

I had an awesome day and got heaps of track time.

I have set my car up to handle a track day but to be honest I think I'm going just do drags, with the ocassional blast on a certain twisty section of road at 8/10ths - more fun than the track I reckon!

On the track I'm just constantly reminded I'm driving a car designed for the road...

i beleive the spirit of the thread is "showroom" cars, not track/strip adjusted.

[Quicksand]

Agreed burnz, tho i think Grobbo was addressing the 'general' perception of drag racing; the current line of discussion is surrounding the relevance of drag racing as a meaningful comparison between cars.