E Series???

[Bipolar]

Originally Posted by Bipolar

Not every post needs a reponse.

Maybe not?

Anyhoo, maybe a list could be started with everyone who agrees to the changes stated in previous posts about a sectioned off E-Series Owners Club thread (as well as a n00b and Help Required area) with an M for those that are members. Please correct this if it is wrong:

Bipolar M
Polyal
nommic M
fiery M
Gunns M

[Polyal]

Originally Posted by Ghia5L

I suspect, like I said ;)

Based on the comment towards Danny, one could assume that if admin wanted the rest of the post remaining they would've modified it Rollin-style by removing the offending line.

But this is all speculation.

Yeah fair call.

Hemi a big Rove what the? I cant comment in a public forum anymore hey.:togo: But like you said, back on topic

[mcflux]

Originally Posted by Bipolar

Anyhoo, maybe a list could be started with everyone who agrees to the changes stated in previous posts about a sectioned off E-Series Owners Club thread (as well as a n00b and Help Required area) with an M for those that are members. Please correct this if it is wrong:

I would agree to this if all the club members could access the club forums. I don't see a singular E-Series Owners Club forum (with sub-forums within a "parent" forum, as per the current setup here) working on AFF due to the banned E-Series members who don't get along with AFF admin/T&C, meaning their valuable input would be missed out on by other E-Series members using the (E-Series) forums.

[EA2BA]

Admin and T&C will always exist on any Forum, so people will wether they be valuable or not will always find themselves banned if they breach T&C or upset Admin too much. It is just the way things work in the cyber world.

[wulos]

Originally Posted by Polyal

Basically copy all the good bits of AFF, and make a mini AFF (the e series section/club) within AFF. If that makes sense.

Following this through, to it's logical conclusion, would not EVERY club forum, be merely a duplicate???
AFF already has a wide & varied number of forums / subforums as it is, making it difficult / confusing to navigate around, without generating even more.
As it is "I" (& these are MY personal thoughts) I believe that there is WAAAAY TOOO much content of a technical / vehicle specific nature that gets posted in "club forums", and THIS more then anything else is what is leading to the confusion.
I believe that these technical threads should be cleaned up & moved into the relevant 'subforums', as it will go a LONG ways to curing the issues of helping 'Noobs' find answers to their questions, and leave the club forums to discuss club business / events / getogethers etc. Further to this it will also assist clubs / disgruntled members that for whatever reason decide to part ways. Members that may have moved, or are a part of a rival club still have access to valuable, & vehicle specific information, and the club doesn't have to deal with these disruptive individuals.
A quick look over the 'general section' in this very club forum, reveals topics on wheels / ecus / engine mechanicals / suspension / bodywork & panel, as well as many social discussions(bar), and even a few threads on meet & greet / minicruises. IMHO - tis a HUGE amount of info for a single subforum to handle successfully.
Would it NOT be better to integrate these into the regular forum, to allow other AFF members to benefit from this wisdom? This will allow this club forum to focus more intently on club related issues(as it was originally intended).

[EFFalcon]

people post eseries content in eseries because it gets a bigger responce.

so in essence you want to turn the eseries club forums (the biggest forum on here) into the smallest
much like the XR clubs that are on this forum.

i guess said change would have to apply to the AUfalcon.com area and x-Series areas too.

which IN MY OPINION, takes away 90% of the club feel.

[snypereb]

Originally Posted by EFFalcon

people post eseries content in eseries because it gets a bigger responce.

so in essence you want to turn the eseries club forums (the biggest forum on here) into the smallest
much like the XR clubs that are on this forum.

i guess said change would have to apply to the AUfalcon.com area and x-Series areas too.

which IN MY OPINION, takes away 90% of the club feel.

We cant move ahead on here it seems john. Time to move!!

[wulos]

Firstly I have NO desire to destroy or downsize the interest generated inside the E series forum!!!! Clearly you do not know / understand me if that IS what you think.
As I pointed out in my previous post - this IS just my personal opinion....

As you correctly point out I DO believe that there is merit in doing this with ALL of the vehicle specific forums. Aufalcon, and the X series being no exceptions to this idea(which atm is all that it is.
As it is the XR clubs already have other areas of the forums where vehicle specific content can be posted. These guys have got Boss / Turbo performance forums and the members tend to post information in those forums which crosses club boundaries.
An F6 Typhoon is going to have the same issues regardless of whether it is owned by a member in Qld, WA, or Tasmania.
Call it brainstorming, or throwing ideas out there
In regards to it removing the 'club' feel I do not really see how this would alter things in the least. AFF IS after all a club in it's own right, and one of our goals / aims is to be "THE" largest Australian Ford club / discussion forum available.
To read between the lines and I do NOT believe that this is the case, one could come to the conclusion that you believe E series has nothing to offer, or desire to offer, content / information to the wider Ford community, and would prefer for E series to be completely seperate from it.
What I believe would be far more beneficial to Ford as a whole is for us to overhaul a few of the sections we currently have, to cater for more vehicle / model specific subforums, where members can be active across more then a single be all to end all spot.
Looking at the bigger picture - keeping information segreagated across multiple forums is a bit silly - wouldn't it be a LOT easier and more efficient to store them in a larger centralised / organised spot?

[russellw]

Originally Posted by EFFalcon

people post eseries content in eseries because it gets a bigger responce.

so in essence you want to turn the eseries club forums (the biggest forum on here) into the smallest
much like the XR clubs that are on this forum.

i guess said change would have to apply to the AUfalcon.com area and x-Series areas too.

which IN MY OPINION, takes away 90% of the club feel.

John, it was another suggestion just like all the other things that have been postulated are suggestions - if you take the time to read what has been posted in your Board area then you will get a feel for where we are presently heading with this although any ideas that gather support will be considered.

Originally Posted by Ghia5L

I would agree to this if all the club members could access the club forums. I don't see a singular E-Series Owners Club forum (with sub-forums within a "parent" forum, as per the current setup here) working on AFF due to the banned E-Series members who don't get along with AFF admin/T&C, meaning their valuable input would be missed out on by other E-Series members using the (E-Series) forums.

In reply to those who are suggesting that a restricted forum would allow the return of banned users, I am sorry but this is not going to happen in some of those cases. Those users were banned for valid reasons and their return is not a negotiable point. It is not a case of them not getting along with the AFF admin team, some of the banned users have been removed at the request of Board memebrs and mods over the years and while we made some decisions about the more recent ones a couple of them were well overdue. This is no different than any of the other clubs who have memebrs that have been banned for their actions on this forum.
I note, with interest, that despite all the defence of Sunny in this thread that only one person has actually asked me what happened in reply to my earlier offer. To me that shows that many people have already determined to take "sides" in this matter based on their own clique memberships rather than actually wanting to know the truth. Sad.

Originally Posted by snypereb

We cant move ahead on here it seems john. Time to move!!

It is understandable that you have some dissatisfaction with the recent decision made but comments like this merely serve to validate that decision.

================================================== ======

If I understand correctly we presently have 3 suggestions on the table and these pretty much encapsulate what i have already proposed to the E-Series Board. This is an opportunity for everyone to present their suggestions and rather than focusing on what has transpired in the past perhaps we can look ahead for awhile?

Russ

[yahoo189]

Ok then. What are the options. List them out clearly for any person that is intrigued in this thread, so as they may have a clear understanding on the issues that are to be decided on.

[russellw]

Originally Posted by yahoo189

Ok then. What are the options. List them out clearly for any person that is intrigued in this thread, so as they may have a clear understanding on the issues that are to be decided on.

They are in this thread over the last couple of pages to be read by everyone.

Russ

[old_mate]

I must say I am very pleasantly surprised with how AFF admin have handled this, sure, it would have been nice to maybe appoint our moderating team based on nominations from the board and with AFF approval but its not a massive issue for me. Many thanks.

I totally and 100% agree to moving the forums to a 'less' public area, however it would need to be protected from becoming the sub forums where all of AFF comes to rant and carry on because it maybe be moderated in a more relaxed manner. Regarding tech posts, I say leave them here because you'll get more views/opinions (i only would surf the rest of AFF every 3rd day or so whereas I check E-series daily)

Last point i have noted during this thread, im curious as to who and why the offer from AFF to assist in registration was turned down. While its no real massive deal anymore, there was a time when it was heavily discussed and i am curious as to where it all went. Being informal as a club, IMO, means more a social and relaxed way of doing things, without the politics hahaha.

[efgiar]

a lot of us e-series guys are under 25, a lot of the ffau admins are over 35... the generations are split and we disagree a lot, if the tables were turned and the admins were in the club and the young blokes were running ffau then the +35ers would be having a cow too and most likely make a decision without even considering consulting the ffau admins. russ excluded, there are some a*shats on the admin team, but in saying that there are some bigger ones floating around too.

my suggestion would be to change the theme a touch, let the e-series section be moderator by the e-series mods and not ffau because if ffau admins come storming in and banning people then it will end up as e-series splitting with ffau. now i cant be stuffed remembering 2 links when i goto tafe to bludge so i dont want that to happen. but just more of a relaxed or an asleep eye on the e-series section and let the moderating in here be done by the mods of the section, with of course a stand in for when there is mod abuse and an ffau admin is needed. in regards to banning, etc, if people get banned in the e-series section, they should still be able to view the other sections of the site, and vise versa, getting banned should only be from 1 section depending on the seriousness of the offence.

[MotherNatureVer2]

a lot of us e-series guys are under 25, a lot of the ffau admins are over 35... the generations are split and we disagree a lot, if the tables were turned and the admins were in the club and the young blokes were running ffau then the +35ers would be having a cow too and most likely make a decision without even considering consulting the ffau admins. russ excluded, there are some a*shats on the admin team, but in saying that there are some bigger ones floating around too.

This is a true statement as far as if the tables were turned, I am one of the few older E Series members, there are a few of us too :P But yes the majority are in the younger age bracket. It is good to see we can blame age on a lot of things :P

Originally Posted by efgiar

my suggestion would be to change the theme a touch, let the e-series section be moderator by the e-series mods and not ffau because if ffau admins come storming in and banning people then it will end up as e-series splitting with ffau. now i cant be stuffed remembering 2 links when i goto tafe to bludge so i dont want that to happen. but just more of a relaxed or an asleep eye on the e-series section and let the moderating in here be done by the mods of the section, with of course a stand in for when there is mod abuse and an ffau admin is needed. in regards to banning, etc, if people get banned in the e-series section, they should still be able to view the other sections of the site, and vise versa, getting banned should only be from 1 section depending on the seriousness of the offence.

This is actually the way things happen normally. The only reason the AFF Admins are involved at the moment is because they were asked to back when action was required. At this point in time E Series mods do NOT have the power to ban people at all. If there is a banning to be done the request goes to the admins, who then review the situation and take action.

I agree that some offences only require a banning from certain areas and this method has been used recently, It is working well.


I would also like to add that I am an E Series member. I am not now and never have been an AFF mod as have been described. I have come to the conclusion that a few are thinking that the mods are taken from a random AFF pot & thrown in to stir up stuff. This is by no way near what happens, as can be seen with EA2BA's appointment. The current 3 mods are all long standing members of E Series (Yes I had a break, but came back as I said I would ;) )

[mcflux]

Originally Posted by russellw

In reply to those who are suggesting that a restricted forum would allow the return of banned users, I am sorry but this is not going to happen in some of those cases. Those users were banned for valid reasons and their return is not a negotiable point. It is not a case of them not getting along with the AFF admin team, some of the banned users have been removed at the request of Board memebrs and mods over the years and while we made some decisions about the more recent ones a couple of them were well overdue. This is no different than any of the other clubs who have memebrs that have been banned for their actions on this forum.
I note, with interest, that despite all the defence of Sunny in this thread that only one person has actually asked me what happened in reply to my earlier offer. To me that shows that many people have already determined to take "sides" in this matter based on their own clique memberships rather than actually wanting to know the truth. Sad.

I'd just like to clarify that I'm not requesting the return of banned members, they're banned from AFF. As for banned members which the club board have decided they don't wish to have in the club anymore, that is the board's decision, not the decision of pleb members such as myself. So I suppose there are a few "double-banned" members in this case. But what about the ones who are still highly valued members of the E-Series Owners Club but have been in breach of AFF T&C (& banned from AFF). These are the members I'm talking about when saying an e-series "senior members" forum on AFF wouldn't work. My wording regarding "not getting along with AFF admin" was a little poor, as it could have been read as these E-Series members being banned merely for a personality clash with admin, and I didn't mean for it to be read that way.

This is why a "whole" e-series club section on AFF would not be complete, as I presume admin would NOT want banned members back on the site. Reason being: because they've been banned! E-Series people have to play by AFF's house rules, since E-Series is a guest hosted in the AFF house. Break the AFF rules, and you're out of the house.

At this point we are open to any suggestions but the present gist of my thoughts is to add a newbie area, a help required area and a senior members forum that would operate in a similar manner to the DM area in terms of the posting rules being more relaxed.

^^^ I can't believe I missed this bit. Whilst the addition of a newbie area would help with controlling where repeated threads are posted ("plz help lower my EF" etc), a senior members forum may become a bit of a "cliquey" issue within itself, namely for e-series members who thought they were a bit higher up the social ladder and then find themselves not-yet-included in the new DM-style forum. This may be hypothetical, but this option introduces the possibility of this occurring.

-Dave-

[wulos]

Originally Posted by efgiar

a lot of us e-series guys are under 25, a lot of the ffau admins are over 35... the generations are split and we disagree a lot, if the tables were turned and the admins were in the club and the young blokes were running ffau then the +35ers would be having a cow too and most likely make a decision without even considering consulting the ffau admins. russ excluded, there are some a*shats on the admin team, but in saying that there are some bigger ones floating around too.

my suggestion would be to change the theme a touch, let the e-series section be moderator by the e-series mods and not ffau because if ffau admins come storming in and banning people then it will end up as e-series splitting with ffau. now i cant be stuffed remembering 2 links when i goto tafe to bludge so i dont want that to happen. but just more of a relaxed or an asleep eye on the e-series section and let the moderating in here be done by the mods of the section, with of course a stand in for when there is mod abuse and an ffau admin is needed. in regards to banning, etc, if people get banned in the e-series section, they should still be able to view the other sections of the site, and vise versa, getting banned should only be from 1 section depending on the seriousness of the offence.

Whilst the age difference does provide an interesting 'excuse' for some, it bears little to no merit at all. Without going into specifics, there are members of the admin/mod team from a MUCH wider age difference of just 10 years. The difference is that the most active admin / Mods understand the need to communicate, and discuss issues to a completed solution.
The greater the age difference the more challenging this task and greater the need for thorough discussions to take place to ensure understanding between the opposing parties.
Disagreements are NOT uncommen. And to be honest this IS something that I am reasonably happy about. Without different opinions, there is no discussion, and ultimately no change. It is important to remember though that these discussion can, and MUST be conducted with mutal respect, and a willingness to listen to the other persons point of view. Tis no different to any other discussion.
From a slightly older standpoint (my exact age really isn't relevant) there are some of us that work quite extensively with guys from a younger age group. For my own in a training / mentoring role, with guys aged 15 - 25. This training / mentoring is by NO MEANS a single sided affair, as I will HAPPILY admit that I have learnt a hell of a LOT, and have a LOT of time for them.

The current E Series moderators have been appointed from the ranks of long standing members / E Series contributors. They have been tasked with both moderating the E series subforum, but EQUALLY as important communicating issues / directly with AFF site Admin, so as to ensure misunderstandings from broken communications do NOT occur.

[mcflux]

wulos, do you ever read your posts out loud? If you work in an office environment, I dare you to do so :P

This training / mentoring is by NO MEANS a single sided affair, as I will HAPPILY admit that I have learnt a hell of a LOT, and have a LOT of time for them

[Bipolar]

Ha ha! That would be funny where I work.

Can Board members and/or mods give us an update on any proposals? As much as this thread has been more constructive over the last few pages, it is still just opinions and ideas. Is anything actually in the pipeline yet?

[russellw]

Originally Posted by Ghia5L

Whilst the addition of a newbie area would help with controlling where repeated threads are posted ("plz help lower my EF" etc), a senior members forum may become a bit of a "cliquey" issue within itself, namely for e-series members who thought they were a bit higher up the social ladder and then find themselves not-yet-included in the new DM-style forum. This may be hypothetical, but this option introduces the possibility of this occurring.
-Dave-

Hi Dave

Yes it is a potential problem and one we are debating at the moment.
It actually faces 3 problems that I can see.

1. How do we identify the E-Series members in the first place - particularly with new ones.

2. How do we then determine who should have access to the private area - if it's done by board selection it risks becoming cliquey, if it is open to everyone then it risks introducing the same problems, if it's based on post count it encourages post whoring. There is no easy solution.

3. The third issue is related to how far the posting rules should be relaxed. I think some things like treating your fellow members with respect along with no pornography are non negotiable points but the use of (for example) sms style posts or mild language could be allowable given the non public nature of the area.

In terms of moderation, it is generally our policy to allow club areas to be self moderating but we will intervene wherever we need to. We have (as MN indicated) used our ability to remove people from specific areas for milder breaches of T&C but that is reviewed on a case by case basis.

Cheers
Russ

[mcflux]

Hi Russ,

Point "1." is easy, there's a membership signup for the E-Series club at http://www.deleted link/portal/club.php. If AFF had some kind of identifier/database for e-series members to allow them access to the E-Series forums then this point should be a piece of cake (like access to the DM forums for example)

2. Exactly, no easy solution either way, and I assume it would be very difficult to make some exceptional coding for AFF members who have
a. also signed up at www.deleted link
b. have posted in the e-series forums here on AFF
b1. have made MEANINGFUL (ie tech section advice, tutorials, etc, rather than chit chat/whore) posts in the e-series section.
c. have been a member for a certain amount of time, or have attended X number of events.
d. the E-Series Board would then decide based on the above criteria who's in and who's not-yet-in and who's never-getting-in the senior members section.

The events criteria (c) would be a difficult one to decide upon, as there are e-series members based in whoop-whoop who would love to attend events but simply cannot due to distance. As for the time-based one, there are a lot of "sleeper" members who signed up early but haven't really posted much at all. Good for them for not cluttering up the forums with whoreish posts, but at the same time, if they haven't posted useful stuff (ie they simply use these forums to learn from, rather than interact/contribute towards with tech stuff) they would be an anomoly in the time-based-membership criteria.

3. I wouldn't see the need for pornography here and I doubt the senior members would either (although I have posted flange-related stuff elsewhere :P). I think it's safe to say that no-one likes SMS language at all on any forum. The swear filter is an interesting issue though, one which I can't offer my opinion or a suggestion/solution on. I'll only have a whinge when the word "flange" is added to the filter :P

In terms of moderation, it is generally our policy to allow club areas to be self moderating but we will intervene wherever we need to. We have (as MN indicated) used our ability to remove people from specific areas for milder breaches of T&C but that is reviewed on a case by case basis.

And that's fair enough too. Despite the size of these forums, case-by-case should still be achievable due to the very small number of contributing members who fall into this category. I'd assume the rest are all 1-day-1-post-spammers/trolls who instantly get the flick.

-Dave-

[wulos]

Originally Posted by Ghia5L

wulos, do you ever read your posts out loud? If you work in an office environment, I dare you to do so :P

This training / mentoring is by NO MEANS a single sided affair, as I will HAPPILY admit that I have learnt a hell of a LOT, and have a LOT of time for them

Go easy mate - I actually work for a living - so there "IS" no office for me!!!
hehehe.
The way I talk in real life is different to the way I type. I type the way I do to put emphasis on words that are key points of a sentence that could easily be brushed over if read in a typed reply.

[MIEF9640]

Call it an" age" thing but I am totally lost there is talk of e-series own site being used but I originally joined at the e-series site only to be redirected to AFF yet the e-series specific site has not been tendered to since 2006 it's now 7mths into 07. I joined there as I have an ef and not the least bit interested in other series if I ask a question or have a view I would rather get the info or be heard by e-series members not every tom , dick & harry .Not to forget talk of renegade member's setting up other forums . FREEDOM OF SPEECH is name name we put on it in society and when i last thought about it we still had that right. I am sure most e-series member's hear what i am saying but all this crap about banning and the rest of it you are on a certain collision course to destroy this forum as unfortunately there will alway's be conflict in some shape or form that is the essence of freedom of speech if freedom of speech is removed then you might as well have the founding members only and everyone else can obviously find an alternative forum to voice their oppinions . For christ's sake sort it out before you lose everybody and even in the these last few post's you already have member's taking sideswipes at each other.GO FIGURE hypocritical or what. People are trying to do things to get everybody involved and all of a sudden everyone wants to be sanctamonius and become as****s get over it and let's get back to having fun.With all this crap the thing that is suffering the most is not the members but that symbol that is ultimately on all our cars for those who do not understand the BLUE OVAL is what we all represent................God Knows we need to all get behind that.

[EF Futura 07]

....sorry i didnt mean to start a huge thread, i just wanted to know what happened.. i do now so thanks everyone. Luke

[mcflux]

Not pressing the enter key makes baby jesus cry

wulos - I'm the same when it comes to key points, capitals get the point across. <3 FLANGE <3 :P

[[Tonko]]

Originally Posted by MIEF9640

Call it an" age" thing but I am totally lost there is talk of e-series own site being used but I originally joined at the e-series site only to be redirected to AFF yet the e-series specific site has not been tendered to since 2006 it's now 7mths into 07. I joined there as I have an ef and not the least bit interested in other series if I ask a question or have a view I would rather get the info or be heard by e-series members not every tom , dick & harry .Not to forget talk of renegade member's setting up other forums . FREEDOM OF SPEECH is name name we put on it in society and when i last thought about it we still had that right. I am sure most e-series member's hear what i am saying but all this crap about banning and the rest of it you are on a certain collision course to destroy this forum as unfortunately there will alway's be conflict in some shape or form that is the essence of freedom of speech if freedom of speech is removed then you might as well have the founding members only and everyone else can obviously find an alternative forum to voice their oppinions . For christ's sake sort it out before you lose everybody and even in the these last few post's you already have member's taking sideswipes at each other.GO FIGURE hypocritical or what. People are trying to do things to get everybody involved and all of a sudden everyone wants to be sanctamonius and become as****s get over it and let's get back to having fun.With all this crap the thing that is suffering the most is not the members but that symbol that is ultimately on all our cars for those who do not understand the BLUE OVAL is what we all represent................God Knows we need to all get behind that.

First: Freedom of speech? Go easy on the patriotic American movies.
The reason i (and alot of others) like this site is because of the civility, and mature structure.

Secondly: As D4V3 said... Punctuation is your friend

Thirdly, and most importantly:

Enjoy!

[trick_xd]

Well after reading this and keeping a eye on it over the last few days it seems that there is a bit of progress
Russ ... you have a hard job ... better you then me
and that goes for all the admin's
Mods ... You are the go-to people ...
Members go to you - you help
if not .. you go to the Admin
Mods ... you have a hard job .. you have to be fair and help everyone even if you think they are Tool's or there Thread is a joke.

As for everything else .. What Russ (thread 201) and Ghia5L (thread202) have said Would be good (if it could be done) as rules for the rest of the E-series to follow.. and I agree with Ghia5L in a lot of points there (a ,b , b1 ,c )

I hope this can be sorted before anything drastic happens and E-series is a thing of the past.

Cheers
Swanny

[MotherNatureVer2]

Thanks for your words of support trick_xd. We are endeavoring to sort this as quickly as possible so we can move forward as a club.

[MIEF9640]

Obviously another misreading of something simple.Maturity of late is something that has been lacking from what i have read all I am saying is that you will always have two views on certain issues "fact" but so long as it is constuctive not destructive then that shouldn't be canned. If it's not freedom of speech then what is it sure as hell not American patriotism as you put it as the same reference is used in the australian justice system and in Federal Parliment so maybe you are watching to many american movies,it was used as a matter of pointing out you cannot expect to stop people from expressing their views on issues and simply because someones nose is out of joint ban them or take away their priveleges what next asking permission to have an opinion. I am just as sick of the rant and banter that sometimes appears but if it offends you as an individual, skip past it if it is not relative to you.Too many people are taking so much to heart that is not relative to themselves causing most of the issues.

Originally Posted by TonkoXR8

First: Freedom of speech? Go easy on the patriotic American movies.
The reason i (and alot of others) like this site is because of the civility, and mature structure.

Secondly: As D4V3 said... Punctuation is your friend

Thirdly, and most importantly:

Enjoy!

[BROCKYB8]

HEY guys i have been reading about this a fair bit and also hearing from other people . HOwever i believe that there seems that some people are wanting to take over E series for there own agenda. Im not a person that is on here alot. And it seems that POlyal seems to be going at everyone during this thread.
DOnt really care much for all your guys fighting just enjoy going to events and meeting up with some people i know for a bit of a chat

[Sonia]

There have been wrongs done on both sides, but the final say on who is welcome here does come down to the big cheese running th show.

Good on the banned guys for starting up their own Forum catering to their needs, I wish them success with it. However, fighting between what use to be a group of people with eseries cars that were willing to help each other out isn't good for any forum. Unfortunately, not everyone likes everyone, but we should just respect each other