"Holden just needs to pay normal wages and it won’t need [Govt] handouts"

[Bossxr8]

Originally Posted by ltd

Which is exactly the same information the Grace Collier has used to base his article upon, and he has his own sources giving him the same information.
Base salary 60-80K, overtime and bonuses bring that up to the range of $100-150K.
I myself have spoken to an ex Holden employee who worked at the Elizebeth plant 7 years ago, and I have seen his group certificate showing he was on a little over 110K. This included overtime and bonuses. You can disagree all you like and you'd be an idiot not to, as you didn't see the aforementioned certificate. But the fact is, there are several people who worked/work for Holden who are happy to let the information out as to how much they are/were paid. Sticking your fingers in your ears and saying "no it's not true, I am a mighty keyboard warrior loyalist who knows all" doesn't rebuke the information which has obviously ended up in the hands of someone like Grace Collier.

Base rate of pay is around 50k, not 60-80. Maybe they could stretch their income over 80k if they worked a lot of overtime, but to get over the 100k mark you would have to basically live there and only go home to sleep. But overtime is very limited these days at all the manufacturers, so no one would ever get that sort of coin these days.

And I can base that on what I make which is pretty much the same across the industry, as we all know what the others are on.

[Bossxr8]

Originally Posted by Big Damo

What sort of tradies are on $80K? Our auto elecs at work are on around mid 40s to low 50s max.

All trades make the same rate, from electricians to fitters and even mechanics. Any trade gets trade pay, and then there is a numbers of grades above that depending on your qualifications.

[stevz]

Originally Posted by ltd

Which is exactly the same information the Grace Collier has used to base his article upon, and he has his own sources giving him the same information.
Base salary 60-80K, overtime and bonuses bring that up to the range of $100-150K.
I myself have spoken to an ex Holden employee who worked at the Elizebeth plant 7 years ago, and I have seen his group certificate showing he was on a little over 110K. This included overtime and bonuses. You can disagree all you like and you'd be an idiot not to, as you didn't see the aforementioned certificate. But the fact is, there are several people who worked/work for Holden who are happy to let the information out as to how much they are/were paid. Sticking your fingers in your ears and saying "no it's not true, I am a mighty keyboard warrior loyalist who knows all" doesn't rebuke the information which has obviously ended up in the hands of someone like Grace Collier.

As recent evidence and borrowing patterns suggest, Holden has become a sheltered workshop of sorts for the union. Don't believe me? Don't care. The management cannot do a thing without union approval which is about as useful as the Qantas Sales Act. Ostensibly Holden harks back to the glory days where industrial action was more common place and when there was little competition by way of imports. It's very much like the Solo service stations that existed a while ago - and it's fate will be the same.
Despite yours and others obvious socialist ideals companies cannot exist when they spend more money than they make, and have to constantly borrow at interest without the ability to pay the loans back. Like socialism, eventually you run out of other peoples money, which is why Holden keep going to Govco to get more money to keep them going.

In spite of this, Ford has been grouped in the same arena as the taxpayer subsidised Holden, which is another reason why so many want the locals to close. Rather than keep suckling at the taxpayer teat, Ford decided to pull the plug on local production so that their image isn't associated with centrelink.
Oh BTW, your beloved Holden went on strike just the other day. http://www.smh.com.au/business/holde...118-2xpuy.html

Quite convenient for you then that you cannot provide proof of this group certificate, as it is most likely a figment of your imagination.
On rough calculations, for a factory worker on approx $23 per hour (plus penalties) to gross $120k+p/a would mean they would have to work at least 85 hours per week for 12 months straight, which seems extremely unrealistic to me considering they were running 2-3 shifts at the time.

May I refresh your memory of the thread where you origianlly made these claims and Bossxr8's response to them:
http://www.fordforums.com.au/showthr...1396532&page=6

Originally Posted by Bossxr8

This is the biggest load of rubbish I have read on this forum. On what planet do production workers even get within half of those figures you have pulled from your rear.

And none of us have worked overtime in at least 5 years, there has been none to speak of. Even in a good year if we had overtime regularly we would still struggle to pull in 65k.

Now I would much rather believe somebody who works in the industry and has seen the payrates and conditions first hand, rather than a keyboard warrior who regurgitates second hand information and hearsay.

[GREGL]

Originally Posted by gregl

what if any trade qualifications do they have , i only ask because as some one else posted going rates for fully trade qualified workers are in a lot of cases lower than the car manufacturing industry appears to be . Unless of course you have ventured to the mines and are on a roster of 14 on 4 off or 28 and 8 off or some such ,doing 12 hour days . In that case you do earn your 150g missing out on all that family time outside of normal business hours . Not quite the same as living a hour ? Away and going home every night when you think about it .
Kinda reminds me of another industry that had a similar set up with lots of overtime years ago , the wharves . Closed shop and all . Some i knew could somehow be home or in the pub selling something off the that fell off the back of a truck before they left work .
Thank god those days are gone , or we would have really been stuffed as a country now .

delete post please comments unwarranted !! Having read the following posts it is obvious there is a lot more to it than meets the eye . A lot more than a layman like myself has the right to comment on .

[gtfpv]

what i find rather embarrassing is the actual people who think that the skill in making a car from a thought to the keys , being a normal job . the skills resources , science, electrical , engineering , robotics and so on is up there with the most advanced technology on the planet . and people cringe at the thought of any in the industry earning over 100k .
it's people like this that need a bullet . earth doesn't need them.
go to your nearest shopping centre , look around and see how many people dont have a job , now have a think about why they dont , it isn't really hard to spot why . a lot of people on welfare are eating machines !!! not all and most of us love some of em cause they are family , but the rest of us pick on ourselves as workers , and agree with the stupidist of all , tv and radio presenters who dont know much more outside of waffling on and paying for thier own food also .

[UberKnee]

Originally Posted by gtfpv

what i find rather embarrassing is the actual people who think that the skill in making a car from a thought to the keys , being a normal job . the skills resources , science, electrical , engineering , robotics and so on is up there with the most advanced technology on the planet . and people cringe at the thought of any in the industry earning over 100k .
it's people like this that need a bullet . earth doesn't need them.
go to your nearest shopping centre , look around and see how many people dont have a job , now have a think about why they dont , it isn't really hard to spot why . a lot of people on welfare are eating machines !!! not all and most of us love some of em cause they are family , but the rest of us pick on ourselves as workers , and agree with the stupidist of all , tv and radio presenters who dont know much more outside of waffling on and paying for thier own food also .

But its not like the average assembly line worker does any of the planning, engineering, etc. If Holden is anything like Chrysler o=and the other American manufacturers then each worker only does a tiny job over and over again. Its not like one person does the whole car from start to finish, they do the same tiny job over and over.

[jamies]

Some of the wages being bandied here are pretty high compared to what some people earn in Australia.. Try living in a state where the average job pays $30k a year and you try to survive paying off a mortgage car loans and every day living expenses..

[gtfpv]

Originally Posted by UberKnee

But its not like the average assembly line worker does any of the planning, engineering, etc. If Holden is anything like Chrysler o=and the other American manufacturers then each worker only does a tiny job over and over again. Its not like one person does the whole car from start to finish, they do the same tiny job over and over.

yep i see your point , but who are we talking about here ? the assembly workers ? it's been explained that they arent earning above normal wages , so who is the story targeting ?

[gtfpv]

Originally Posted by jamies

Some of the wages being bandied here are pretty high compared to what some people earn in Australia.. Try living in a state where the average job pays $30k a year and you try to survive paying off a mortgage car loans and every day living expenses..

you simply cant . my wifes 86 your old grand mother would be way infront on the pension and in her housing commission home .
infact she'd be better off than a worker on 50k

[nstg8a]

Originally Posted by jamies

Some of the wages being bandied here are pretty high compared to what some people earn in Australia.. Try living in a state where the average job pays $30k a year and you try to survive paying off a mortgage car loans and every day living expenses..

What state does the average job pay 30k a year?

I've been in Brisbane for 5 years now and haven't earned less than 40k? And I'm not qualified in anything, up until the last 3 years I was just doing basic factory/processing work.

[burnz]

Originally Posted by jamies

Some of the wages being bandied here are pretty high compared to what some people earn in Australia.. Try living in a state where the average job pays $30k a year and you try to survive paying off a mortgage car loans and every day living expenses..

are you an apprentice?

[jamies]

Originally Posted by burnz

are you an apprentice?

Try and live in Tassie mate, I lived there for 27 years, the wages are low but you learn got do do it tough.. Obviously you haven't done it hard before...

[gtfpv]

Originally Posted by jamies

Try and live in Tassie mate, I lived there for 27 years, the wages are low but you learn got do do it tough.. Obviously you haven't done it hard before...

well , theres nothing to do in tassie but drink herbal tea , put your feet up and smoke some weed , why do you need money there , compare that to a 60 hr week + ATLEAST 10 HRS TRAVEL and 450k mortgage in sydney AND PEOPLE TRYING TO TAKE YOU DOWN IF YOU EARN 100K. maybe the 27k a yr might be better . LOL

[jamies]

Originally Posted by gtfpv

well , theres nothing to do in tassie but drink herbal tea , put your feet up and smoke some weed , why do you need money there , compare that to a 60 hr week + ATLEAST 10 HRS TRAVEL and 450k mortgage in sydney . maybe the 27k a yr might be better . LOL

Ha ha... Mate I moved to the goldcoast ten years ago best thing I could of done. We did it hard in Tassie a lot of my friends and family do still. I worked in Hobart at ford as the sales rep $28k a year with a car.. It's tough trying to survive on low wages,not having enough money for any luxuries. I have also been a production worker in a ship yard in Hobart. Good money there at the time but still a long way off what the mainland pays.

[1TUFFUTE]

Originally Posted by velvet

I pay my employees above award rates, stated below plus work cover, super and holidays. I'd assume factory workers are on similar money but add all the "benefits" they receive (52 weeks redundancy for a start) and it costs a considerable amount on top of that.
.
BUILDING TRADESPERSON
HOURLY, **CASUAL 20% Loading



Registered Plumber
$22.76 $27.31
Plumber/Gasfitter
$22.28 **$26.74
Bricklayer
$22.05 **$26.46
Plasterer
$22.13 **$26.56
Carpenter / Joiner
$22.25 **$26.70
Plasterer
$21.57 **$25.88
Wall & Floor Tiler
$21.57 **$25.88
Bricklayer
$21.49 **$25.79
Roof Tile Fixer
$21.36 **$25.63
Painter
$21.15 **$25.40

Your only paying your carpenters mid 20s per hour.........they are the most important piece of the puzzle on any job site. Modern carpenters know almost all the trades, as cross trade awareness is needed more then ever. I wouldn't show up for less then $37 phr. Most chippy labourers get $22phr

[UberKnee]

What I was thinking, hell apprentice 4th year carpenters would get near on that much an hour thesedays. You'd have to work 12 hour days, 7 days a week to make a decent living.

[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by Bossxr8

All trades make the same rate, from electricians to fitters and even mechanics. Any trade gets trade pay, and then there is a numbers of grades above that depending on your qualifications.

Wow, being a mechanic at Ford would be the best, you don't get anywhere near that in dealerships or workshops, about half of that.

The difference there would be very strong union presence, the manufacturers would be up there with the construction workers in terms of union participation rates?

In 90% of workshops, whats a union?

Originally Posted by 1TUFFUTE

Your only paying your carpenters mid 20s per hour.........they are the most important piece of the puzzle on any job site. Modern carpenters know almost all the trades, as cross trade awareness is needed more then ever. I wouldn't show up for less then $37 phr. Most chippy labourers get $22phr

Our TA's are on $18-20 an hour.

[BadMax]

It's interesting reading some of the replies concerning, 'not getting out of bed for x amount', that must be an apprentice wage etc.

Your greed is the downfall of this countries manufacturing. I don't blame employers hiring cheap, overseas labour to get jobs done. Having an expectation of stupidly high wages to cater to the debt you've gotten yourself into is your problem.

It's a big vicious circle. People want a big wage but complain about the costs of goods in Australia, well what about that person selling you the goods, aren't they entitled to a what you consider a decent wage? Well, it may be a surprise to you, but you're paying for it.
Complain about not getting paid $$$ an hour as builder and then complain about not being able to afford housing? Who's fault is that with profits being eroded?

[ltd]

Originally Posted by Bossxr8

Base rate of pay is around 50k, not 60-80. Maybe they could stretch their income over 80k if they worked a lot of overtime, but to get over the 100k mark you would have to basically live there and only go home to sleep. But overtime is very limited these days at all the manufacturers, so no one would ever get that sort of coin these days.

And I can base that on what I make which is pretty much the same across the industry, as we all know what the others are on.

No offence Bossxr8, but you work at Ford no?
Holden is a different kettle of fish where they can't even have a board meeting without at least two union delegates present.

[ltd]

Originally Posted by stevz

Quite convenient for you then that you cannot provide proof of this group certificate, as it is most likely a figment of your imagination.
On rough calculations, for a factory worker on approx $23 per hour (plus penalties) to gross $120k+p/a would mean they would have to work at least 85 hours per week for 12 months straight, which seems extremely unrealistic to me considering they were running 2-3 shifts at the time.

May I refresh your memory of the thread where you origianlly made these claims and Bossxr8's response to them:
http://www.fordforums.com.au/showthr...1396532&page=6


Now I would much rather believe somebody who works in the industry and has seen the payrates and conditions first hand, rather than a keyboard warrior who regurgitates second hand information and hearsay.

Wow. I have stirred the ire of the resident Holden loyalist.
Obviously you can't discern between oranges and apples or in this case Holden and Ford, so trying to illustrate anything to you would be akin to hitting oneself in the groin repeatedly with a rubber mallet.
Bossxr8 works for Ford, you know, the company that has relative market independence sufficient for head office to pull the pin and announce three years out their imminent closure of manufacturing locally. What he describes, is what has happened at Ford.

Holden is a closed union shop, much like Qantas is, and I have had experience with the latter. Whilst you bang on about your beloved Holden and how they can do no wrong as you do in all of your responses on this forum, blind faith alone from ignorant fan-boys like yourself is not going to save the company.

The facts are thus, the company has a massive wage bill which is driven largely by various union demands, allowances and bonuses and the company is losing money on the order of between 200 million to 400 million dollars a year. It requires government assistance to keep going and is teetering on the edge of closure due to their inability to reign in expenses and turn a profit. These figures are readily available for anyone with a modicum of intelligence; although often ignored by the blind loyalist fan-boy which is exactly what I imagine you to be.
Much the same as Qantas maintenance, whilst the bottom line dictates that it's far too expensive to continue, industrial action will ensure the death knell of Holden as it did to Qantas maintenance. This happens when you work in a a global market place, something that your typical union delegate is either too short sighted or ignorant to believe. That's why they keep making unreasonable demands which they hold the company over a barrel to receive - it's short sighted and doomed to fail as the market catches up to what is acceptable as other countries bid for and are able to do the same job for much less. Failing that, the company needs subsidy or faces closure.

Tell me VZ, where exactly in this modern day and age has union influence over commercial ventures ended well for employees? Whilst I whole heartedly agree they did have a place in the past, where in the globally competitive market place in the last 10 years have they actually achieved a desirable outcome that has gone on to record company success?

Face it, Holden will close down and some of the revelations to come out as to how it was run and what people were paid will astound most, much the same as the claims about the ABC and their employees were paid last week.

[Gobes32]

Funny, everytime there is a thread where wages come into the equation I ask the same question "What is a fair wage?" And everytime it goes unanswered........ Obviously I should just put it in the too hard basket.

Ford workers are on 50-55k a year depending on skill level. I work in the stamping plant so I drive forklifts, run the presses and die set the lines using the 50T gantry cranes. With such a low level of employees still working out on the floor, we have had to adapt to performing different roles each day. Gone are the days where you would work on the same press day in, day out. The irony of course is that our quality has never been better. Maybe it is due to the varied jobs ensuring you are never "bored" at work or maybe it is a case of before there were too many cooks and they were spoiling the broth, who knows.

On a side note, my brother in laws greed has grown considerably ever since he paid off his home. He is no longer a slave to the bank and so he works where and when he feels like it. In his own words, life is too short to be swinging a sledge hammer in a non union workshop for $15 an hour.........

[BA GT-HO]

Originally Posted by ltd

Tell me VZ, where exactly in this modern day and age has union influence over commercial ventures ended well for employees? Whilst I whole heartedly agree they did have a place in the past, where in the globally competitive market place in the last 10 years have they actually achieved a desirable outcome that has gone on to record company success?

This.

The us vs them mentality of unionists has killed manufacturing in this country.

Happily they are a dying breed. Unions are becoming less relevant with each passing day.

[stazza]

@ Holden workshop staff apparently on $120+k a year. I've never heard something so ridiculous. For the record, the EBA for the project I'm on (biggest resources project in australian history) is a union negotiated EBA, most of the guys here would be on max 140-150k with overtime. You're basically saying Holden workshop employees are clearing 2 grand a week in the hand. What a crock.

[stazza]

Originally Posted by BA GT-HO

This.

The us vs them mentality of unionists has killed manufacturing in this country.

Happily they are a dying breed. Unions are becoming less relevant with each passing day.

Just because it hasn't gone down in history doesn't mean nothing has been achieved.

I can't help but think the majority of these anti union claims have been made by yes men that have never worked in an industry where the union has offered protection for the worker and given the worker the confidence to say no and have a fair say.

[ltd]

Originally Posted by stazza

Just because it hasn't gone down in history doesn't mean nothing has been achieved.

I can't help but think the majority of these anti union claims have been made by yes men that have never worked in an industry where the union has offered protection for the worker and given the worker the confidence to say no and have a fair say.

That's where you'd be wrong.
I have worked and still do work in an industry where the union is all powerful, and I have seen some of the most ridiculous things happen in the name of unions flexing their stupidity. I actually have spoken several times to Steve Purvenis and I have told him how he has basically cost thousands of jobs through his sheer negligence and stupidity. Funnily enough, I also still am mates with several people who lost their jobs because the company closed maintenance, whilst they actually were trying to improve efficiency through better tools etc, the union got upset, forced a strike and at the end of a 12 month period everyone was made redundant. All that I still speak to blame the union for the short sighted grandstanding which ultimately left them unemployed.
I've also had a bit to do with Doug Cameron before he became an MP and have seen the countless walkouts and deliberate attempts to sabotage the company I worked for.
You can take your pious attitude of us versus them and stick it where the sun don't shine, for you and your other socialist buddies have not walked in inch in my shoes, let alone a mile.

[jamies]

I have seen unions at work first hand, When I worked in a boat yard the union said down tools and strike.. if they wont give us a payrise we wont work, I was an apprentice at the time and everyone was buzzing saying strike.. strike.. strike...
The owner of the ship yard sent out a letter the day of the strike, it basically said
''If you strike I will sack the lot of you and employ 500 staff that want to work, I don't care how long it takes to train them''.. Well the union disappeared with there tail between there legs and not another thing was said.. I realised as a teen in 1996 that unions are more trouble then what there worth.

[BHDOGS]

ah unions the great evil until you work in an industry with a **** one and realize how much your bosses will shaft you if given the chance it goes both ways over zealous unions and greedy money hungry bosses who decides the fine line its all good for people to bang on about both ways but in reality they have no answers just pious rhetoric you cant tear either one down and say problem solved

[gtfpv]

Originally Posted by BadMax

It's interesting reading some of the replies concerning, 'not getting out of bed for x amount', that must be an apprentice wage etc.

Your greed is the downfall of this countries manufacturing. I don't blame employers hiring cheap, overseas labour to get jobs done. Having an expectation of stupidly high wages to cater to the debt you've gotten yourself into is your problem.

It's a big vicious circle. People want a big wage but complain about the costs of goods in Australia, well what about that person selling you the goods, aren't they entitled to a what you consider a decent wage? Well, it may be a surprise to you, but you're paying for it.
Complain about not getting paid $$$ an hour as builder and then complain about not being able to afford housing? Who's fault is that with profits being eroded?

[gtfpv]

why are police , nurses , tradesman , doctors, school teachers, transport workers, all in unions ?
so they can strike . ohh i see . are any of them wealthy , ohhh thats right , no . they must be bad folk then .
if it werent for all of these folk being in unions , cause they have it wrong in thier heads , well if these folk just got out of the way and became decent folk . we'd all be much better off and have a much better living standard eh !!!! and if banks stopped making less profits and govts stopped raising revenue , ( ohhh wait a minute ) these unions are the problem

loserville ( a town where no one is in a union ) .

[irish2]

This thread has gone a bit off topic with union bashing. Here are the top 5 countries for union membership and the percentages;
1 Sweden 82%
2 Denmark: 76%
3 Finland: 76%
4 Norway: 57%
5 Belgium: 53%

Now places like the good old USA has 11%. Australia is about 22%. You tell me which counties are doing it better in terms of standard of living.