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The Pub For General Automotive Related Talk |
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#1 | ||
FF.Com.Au Hardcore
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 1,224
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Ok guys, here's my argument. I haven't been too fussed with my mates giving me lip or caring about towing capacity of a turbo terry. However, they seem 100% sure that a 4.2L turbo diesel is way better for towing... personally i don't give a rats about towing, i won't be towing anything regardless! But i'm 150% sure that a TT will pull a 1.5 tonne trailer/load up a hill or over a course quicker then a 4.2L turbo diesel patrol.... A TT will do it easier, and quicker... not worrying about fuel economy.
I agree that diesel cars will be more fuel efficient in doing the same work... This doesn't automatically mean they're better for towing though... However, the argument continues... They also suggest that a diesel will tow better and get the 'object' off the line easier... Again i disagree, 480Nm is still 480Nm, and it peaks very early in the TT, not to mention a diesel car will usually have different gearing (1st/2nd gear revs out quickly), making it feel like it does it easier. My argument is this: If a TT has 480Nm, and 245kw, and a patrol has 175kw and 480Nm (made up figures), then the TT is surely going to tow just as well, plus do it faster... Fuel economy is not an issue here... Am i missing something here or what???? I understand that a turbo diesel will be a torque monster, but it'll usually lack KW (top end power), on the same token a turbo terry will be a torque monster but still have the KW (top end) to keep it going (rev harder and keep accelerating). So, at the end of the day, towing a 1.5 tonne trailer, which is better? Remember fuel economy is not an issue... Surely a TT is the winner? It's horses for courses, but at the end of the day a TT will tow as much if not more, and still accelerate a ***** load quicker, is this not correct?? Fuel economy will be better in the diesel, but this is not being considered as a measure of success... |
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#2 | ||
windsor user
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Geelong
Posts: 13,123
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because when your towing, you want to accelerate like a race car...yeh thats desireable
the diesel will give you most of its power and torque from about 1500rpm the turbo 6 will be around 3000 or so..... without a doubt i would go for the diesel for pulling stuff |
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#3 | ||
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 9,292
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Ill put my money on the Turbo Diesel any day of the week.
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#4 | ||
FF.Com.Au Hardcore
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Gren A Waverrey
Posts: 2,363
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Agreed.
Diesel is better for pulling. Great torque. That's why my mate ONLY wanted a Turbo Diesel Manual for his Pajero - because unlike 90% of people, he takes his car off road. Si much in fact that he's damaged his exhaust and something else (that will cost 7k to repair). The new 4WDs are not built as well as the older ones (due to the market), but that's irrelevant. He wanted a diesel because he wants the grunt to get up a hill. He doesn't need to do it in record time.
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Practicing - Sleeping with a guitar in your hand counts, as long as you don't drop it. Don't snap my undies. |
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#5 | ||
Banned
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Bat Cave
Posts: 1,237
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I'd put a tenner on a 6 auto turbo Terri towing 1500kg being able to out accelerate a patrol towing nothing
why would you need acceleration someone asks overtaking racing rice boys in civics I don't like diesels tiny powerband all torque no go if a 6a t Terri did 60 flat out in 1st and 90 in 2nd you see a massive difference towing stuff what's the patrols gearing like flatout maybe 40km in 1 and 80 in 2nd the thay say my golf tdi has so much torque. As will any 2.0l 4 with 16psi boost. I've done many mm in an 08 2.0tdi dsg golf and I hate the little truck I used to run heaps of people towing a 6x4 with 3 bikes in the back and gear and stuff |
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#6 | |||
FF.Com.Au Hardcore
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Canberra Region
Posts: 8,925
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Quote:
Fall out of boost in diesel and it gets real slow. But its the Tortoise and the Hare. The turbo petrol will get up the hill quicker, but will probably have overheated by the top. The diesel will just get up there slow and steady...
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2016 FGX XR8 Sprint, 6speed manual, Kinetic Blue #170 2004 BA wagon RTV project. 1998 EL XR8, Auto, Hot Chilli Red 1993 ED XR6, 5speed, Polynesian Green. 1 of 329. Retired 1968 XT Falcon 500 wagon, 3 on the tree, 3.6L. Patina project. |
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#7 | |||
FF.Com.Au Hardcore
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Melb north
Posts: 12,025
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#8 | |||
FF.Com.Au Hardcore
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Newcastle
Posts: 3,246
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Quote:
A Turbo Terri will do 0-100kmh in mid 7s. A Turbo Diesel Patrol will do 0-100kmh in what 12s? A Turbo Terri has 450Nm+ from 2000rpm to 5000rpm and a 6spd ZF.
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#9 | ||
Half an aussie garage!!
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Perth
Posts: 351
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I'd have some money on even a standard 4L smashing the diesel in acceleration.. whatever it is towing.. letalone a turbo petrol motor.
It would just used five times as much fuel doing so. Yes.. diesels have a great amount of torque from say.. 2100 to 2300 rpm.. but then nothing after that. (or before it). |
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#10 | ||
VFII SS UTE
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Central Coast
Posts: 6,353
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4.2L diesel NA will give a t/terry a hard time when towing.
4.2 turbo diesel should be around 550+ Nm @1500rpm
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#11 | |||
FF.Com.Au Hardcore
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Perth
Posts: 1,557
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#12 | |||
Half an aussie garage!!
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Perth
Posts: 351
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Quote:
^^ Yep.. they probably should be.. but try driving one. I have been driving a patrol EVERY day for a few months.. towing.. travelling.. slowly!!!. I think the best patrols are the ones with the brunswick 6.5L chev diesel.. and maybe the new french engine will be OK.. but the rest of the diesel versions suck. |
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#13 | |||
FF.Com.Au Hardcore
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Perth
Posts: 1,557
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Quote:
Where do I get one of these rocket ships? A 4.2 td patrol is good for 114kw at about 3600 rpm and 330nm at 2000 rpm. Couldn't pull the skin off ya mums custard. An NA diesel will have you wanting to get back on public transport. A turbo diesel 200 series, range rover sport, lc79 cruiser, f250 or a toureg are about the only 4wds that will out pull a turbo Terri If fuel is not a consideration. |
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#14 | ||
FF.Com.Au Hardcore
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Melb north
Posts: 12,025
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speaking of slak diesels, my mate i used to go scrub bashing with had an Nissan sd33(non turbo) 3.3l diesel in an MQ patrol............never!!!....... have i seen such a slug of a motor lol, about its only redeeming feature was its engine brakeing in low gear.
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#15 | ||
FF.Com.Au Hardcore
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Geelong
Posts: 2,374
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My money's on the terri the i6t would get to the top of the hill faster
Both turbo's will be in by 2000rpm but the diesel would need changing gears at 3000 rpm the i6t will pull 480nm all the way to the limiter. You boys seem to forget the were trialling the i6 for aiport tugs |
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#16 | ||
FF.Com.Au Hardcore
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 3,876
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Turbo diesels in most 4wds are very overrated, but they get good fuel economy. I had a V8 turbo diesel Landcruiser over 2700km and it was honestly nothing special. There is no way whatsoever it would outperform a turbo Territory in towing a heavy load, but it would use less fuel.
In something as heavy as a Landcruiser I would pick the diesel, but I wont expect performance better than say a Camry. |
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#17 | |||
FF.Com.Au Hardcore
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Chapel St
Posts: 774
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Quote:
Haha, mum had a LWB one of those back when I was a young un.... SD33 N/A Diesel, 4spd Manual gearbox.... Slow as a wet week, it would wheel spin its 33" all terrains in the wet tho!
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#18 | ||||
FF.Com.Au Hardcore
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Posts: 2,602
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Quote:
On takeoff the TD would get the jump, but would run out of puff fast and upshift quickly, breaking momentum and losing boost. The Turbo petrol would quickly enter the torque curve and would then start to move quickly, then with the wider powerband as it revs out and goes up a gear, would drop right back into the sweet spot and keep going. A few drivers where I used to work would replace their stuffed diesels on 3-5 tonne trucks with a small block Chev on gas. More go, probably cost as much as the rebuilt diesel motor and fuel costs were probably similar on gas
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#19 | |||
FF.Com.Au Hardcore
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Barossa Valley, South Australia
Posts: 3,381
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Quote:
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Cheers, Sam. |
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#20 | ||
I am Groot
![]() Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Burnett Heads, Qld
Posts: 6,840
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It’s a pointless comparison, ones a purpose built 4WD and the others at best a AWD soft-roader, both aimed at a different customer. While a Turbo Territory may beat a Turbo Patrol in the Territorys designed environment, my money will be on the Patrol on a trip to Cape York and back....
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.. ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() "Those were the days when the cars were cars, they weren't built out of an Ikea pack like they are now and clothed in plastic; they were real cars." John Bowe |
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#21 | ||
FF.Com.Au Hardcore
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 1,224
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Just to clarify, i wouldn't buy a TT as a dedicated tow car... If i needed to tow something i would have bought a turbo diesel for the fuel economy.
The question just arrises because my mates tow boats. I really don't know how much power the turbo diesel has, it's never been put on a dyno. I 100% understand that a turbo diesel is awesome for towing, but i think the TT would be equal to the task if not better. The only downside to the TT is the fuel consumption, which isn't a factor in this particular argument. Initially my mate said a turbo diesel would tow a tonne of sand up a hill quicker then a TT, when i explained the power/torque of the TT he slightly retracted his comments, but then said the turbo diesel is still better for towing. I'm trying to explain that a TT should be equal too, if not better due to the wide torque band and peak horsepower. I semi-agree that a turbo diesel would probably pull off the line quicker (initially) until they had to change to 2nd gear at about 4000rpm... Remember a TT makes peak torque from 2000rpm so surely a TT will pull stuff up a hill with just as much ease as a turbo diesel? All i'm trying to do is prove that a TT is as good at towing, if not better... Again, putting fuel economy aside... Overtaking would easier, acceleration would be better. Edit - I'd almost go as far to say that a TT with a tonne of sand would still go close to beating a turbo diesel up a hill with no sand. |
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#22 | |||
FF.Com.Au Hardcore
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 1,224
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#23 | |||
I am Groot
![]() Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Burnett Heads, Qld
Posts: 6,840
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Quote:
Ford Aus Website... # 2,300kg is the maximum towing capacity using a Genuine Ford heavy duty tow pack with load levelling kit. For RWD models, an auxiliary transmission oil cooler must be fitted. To comply with these limits, occupants and/or luggage may need to be restricted. For greater passenger and luggage requirements, please consult your authorised Ford Dealer for details and/or refer to the Territory owner manual under 'Towing Capacities' for further guidance. Subject to State and Territory regulations. ...but would you use the results to choose between the two...???
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.. ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() "Those were the days when the cars were cars, they weren't built out of an Ikea pack like they are now and clothed in plastic; they were real cars." John Bowe |
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#24 | ||
Flairs - Truckers Delight
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Brisbane Northside Likes: Opposite Lock
Posts: 5,731
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economy aside, the TT without a shadow of a doubt.
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Current: Silhouette Black 2007 SY Ford Territory TX RWD 7-seater "Black Banger"
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#25 | |||
FF.Com.Au Hardcore
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 1,224
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Quote:
All i'm trying to get through to my mates is that whilst it's not a 4X4 or a car people would buy to tow on a regular basis a TT is still as good as a turbo diesel for towing... For some reason they seem to think the turbo diesel has more torque or uses torque differently, making it better.... I'm saying that torque is still torque, and when you get max torque at 2000rpm with a good whack of horsepower, it should tow as good if not better then a turbo diesel... |
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#26 | ||
Performance moderator
![]() Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: St Clair..N.S.W
Posts: 14,875
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In ten years time I know what vehicle will be still going strong...
Modern diesels are NOTHING like the old clunkers.. Picking the Nissan with it's 4 cylinder [AU spec] doesn't assist the diesel either.. You MUST consider fuel consumption, braking, handling and durability when towing.. Boats are relatively easy to tow if your not in a hurry... Why would you be in a hurry towing 3+ ton ??
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Real cars are not driven by front wheels,real cars lift them!!... BABYS ARE BOTTLE FED, REAL MEN GET BLOWN. Don't be afraid to try something new. Remember, amateurs built the Ark...Professionals built the Titanic! Dart 330ci block turbo black pearl EBXR8 482 rwkw.. Daily driver GTE FG.. Projects http://www.fordforums.com.au/showthread.php?t=107711 http://www.fordforums.com.au/showthr...8+turbo&page=4 |
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#27 | ||
I am Groot
![]() Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Burnett Heads, Qld
Posts: 6,840
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Ok, well i would suggest you and your mates get the two vehicals in question, two rated trailers, 2000kg of sand each and a hill.....
Also maybe a side bet of a grand or two..... ;)
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.. ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() "Those were the days when the cars were cars, they weren't built out of an Ikea pack like they are now and clothed in plastic; they were real cars." John Bowe |
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#28 | |||
FF.Com.Au Hardcore
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 1,224
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#29 | ||
FF.Com.Au Hardcore
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 11,277
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Ive seen 4.0 NA Terrys towing 23' Caravans that weigh a lot more than 1500 Kg....
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#30 | |||
You dig, we stick!
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 7,461
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TT FTW.
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