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06-06-2011, 12:23 AM | #1 | ||
FF.Com.Au Hardcore
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Just been cleaning out my shed preparing to sell the house in Bundy, and was reading some of my vast collection of old car magazines as I was packing them away.
One thing that struck me was the similarities to things in those magazines and things being discussed in the motoring press and here on this forum today. Things don't appear to have changed much... One item was "is it fair to compare foreign cars to Australian cars?", especially things like BMW's and Mercedes Benzes, with our similar, large, rear-drive sedans? One article was from Car Australia magazine, from 1984, discussing the problems with the Camira. The other was in Wheels magazine from 1992, and discussed the issues with the then-new EA Falcon. They both said similar things, such as that "Local car makers must learn to match the quality control standards of imported cars". They also made a comment about the EA issues and that while claims were made in marketing that it was a "world class" car it "certainly wasn't a Benz W124". So here we are, well into the 21st century, and still we see people complaining about quality problems with thier new Falcons and Commodores, owners getting annoyed, companies saying we should be happy with what we get, and even owners forgiving them thier sometimes-serious QA problems by saying "aw bless 'em, they do the best for the price they charge", and that it isn't fair to compare them with BMW's and Benzes. But is it unfair? The local manufacturers have been building these large cars for half a century...by now they should have a fair idea how to screw together a car correctly, and how to run an efficient quality control program. One owner beset by a series of errors in a Camira was told by the frustrated dealer that "it seems the manufacturer just trusts us to catch all the faults and fix them at the first service". Sadly, similar statements echoed down the years to follow with other car makers here. So why has nothing changed? I suspect it's because they know we are a captive audience, with car makers here protected from the big bad world outside our shores, taxing the buggery out of anything that might compete with our beloved (and flawed) local product. Lower class BMW's and Benzes are luxury cars here for one reason, and one reason only: import duties and taxes slapped on them to artificially inflate the price, coupled with a huge barrier stopping us from driving new left hand drive cars here freely, unlike just about anywhere else in the world. Got to Germany, and you will see taxi ranks full of cars that in Australia would be parked in the CEO's reserved parking space. It's always fun to do a bit of reading of old car magazines to see the opinions and stuff that went on at the time in the motoring industry. The more things change, the more they stay the same, it appears... |
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06-06-2011, 12:28 AM | #2 | ||
BURN RUBBER NOT OIL
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Rylstone, NSW
Posts: 2,461
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I have a box full of old car mags. I wish Street Machine would give away another phase 3 gtho...
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06-06-2011, 12:41 AM | #3 | ||
IWCMOGTVM Club Supporter
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So what's the difference between this thread and the other one you started?
http://www.fordforums.com.au/showthread.php?t=11330661
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Daniel |
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06-06-2011, 08:00 AM | #4 | ||
FF.Com.Au Hardcore
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Location: On The Footplate.
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The difference is that I hadn't re-read my old magazines...it struck me as odd that the exact same sentiments were being expressed now as in, for example, the late seventies and early eighties, and nothing appears to have changed.
People still complain about Australian-made product, people still roundly defend that product even knowing the faults really shouldn't exist for the price we pay. The main point though is the question "Is it unfair to compare"? I don't think it is, seeing as how the cars people "compare" Falcons and Commodores to are, in thier home market, nothing special and basically thier version of a Commodore or Falcon. The quality control issues are really linked to this question. |
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06-06-2011, 08:48 AM | #5 | ||
The 'Stihl' Man
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: TAS
Posts: 27,584
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"the price we pay"...dont buy it then.
You cannot build a Mercedes on a falcon/commy budget...simple as that. There are no better cars than the falcon/commy is you look at long term ownership, running costs and functionality. In saying that there are areas in which the locals give as good as, if not better performance, thats when people start comparing. What you have to judge is are the others work the extra $x for what you get, and that will be different for everyone because generally we prioritize different things.
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06-06-2011, 02:33 PM | #6 | |||
Regular Member
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Posts: 282
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Quote:
When Ford build their bodies there is an allowance for fit in all their designs, this is a standard engineering principle so that two components can come together and have a further allowance for the hundreds of other components which chain together to create the body and trim. The quality of this fit in the falcon is terrible yet Merc seem to be able to get it right, why? Because they have used their years of experience to continually improved the look and assembly of their product. If a joint between 2 plastic peices in this years model was a bit misaligned due to the type of connection then next years model will be changed. At Ford its "well we didn't get that many complaints" near enough close enough, we'll use the same joint again. Its no wonder more and more Australians are migrating to other better made vehicles from the european market. They cost a bit more and usually for a similar price you have a much smaller vehicle, but thats a hit Australians seem to be willing to make these days. Loyalty to brand names is rapidly disappearing so if Ford or the other Aus company want to continue to sell in this country a cultural change in their engineering is needed.
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__________________________ They call it a rort when they're not in on it Mark |
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06-06-2011, 02:49 PM | #7 | |||
Computer Torque Control
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Ballarat East
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Quote:
It's a different story for BMW though. |
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06-06-2011, 03:07 PM | #8 | ||
FF.Com.Au Hardcore
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I saw a video recently that gave a lot of insight into the way GM assembled cars circa 2000, I imagine Ford and Holden in Aus use a lot of similar principles. Everything is allowed a certain tolerance in terms of fit and issues are usually only tackled following customer complaints. Some panels were given 4-5mm gap tolerances! The boot doesn't line up? Cut down the rubber stopper.
Step inside a German car and this is clearly not the way they do things.
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06-06-2011, 03:17 PM | #9 | |||
FF.Com.Au Hardcore
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Quote:
As I said, you will see cars in taxi ranks in Europe that here would be in the executive car park area of a business. So it is fair to compare. From reading the old car magazines though, even nearly thirty years ago car makers were crying foul when this was done... |
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06-06-2011, 03:31 PM | #10 | ||
FF.Com.Au Hardcore
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I suppose it depends on what extent you're willing to put up with poor fit and finish in return for the superior base model drivetrain. Yes the base model Merc will crap all over Ford and Holden for fit and finish but the base engine wouldn't pull the skin off rice pudding. German drivetrains and suspensions are also way over-engineered, blowing out the cost of repair/replacement and making it very difficult for backyard mechanics to have a go. But very few people these days even know how to check their oil so it's not something that is considered.
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2011 FG XR6 Sedan |
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06-06-2011, 03:40 PM | #11 | |||
FF.Com.Au Hardcore
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Quote:
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My ride: 2007 Falcon Ute BF XR8 Orange, MTO. |
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06-06-2011, 03:45 PM | #12 | |||
Computer Torque Control
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Quote:
As a side note, my father's Mercedes has been plagued with many fit and finish (and reliability) problems. As well as that, it's got a slow, torqueless, whiny, unrefined V6, and handles like garbage. It pulls left, with absolutely zero steering feel. It's impossible to keep in a straight line. The equivalent base model Falcon, the AU (with live axle) is leaps and bounds ahead. And from what I've read (in reviews etc.), things really haven't changed a bit. |
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06-06-2011, 04:06 PM | #13 | |||
Former BTIKD
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Location: Sunny Downtown Wagga Wagga. NSW.
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Quote:
Mercedes C 200 $58,000 FORD FALCON G6E TURBO $59,000
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06-06-2011, 04:11 PM | #14 | |||
I am Groot
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Quote:
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.. McLaren F1 Dick Johnson Racing "Those were the days when the cars were cars, they weren't built out of an Ikea pack like they are now and clothed in plastic; they were real cars." John Bowe |
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06-06-2011, 06:13 PM | #15 | |||
IWCMOGTVM Club Supporter
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Quote:
No you won't. Main taxi's are old Toyota's. Hyundai's and Kia's are the newer ones. There's a couple of prius and CNG taxis but they are mainly diesels.
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Daniel |
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06-06-2011, 06:48 PM | #16 | |||
I am Groot
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Burnett Heads, Qld
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Quote:
And i didn't say they where the main ones, just that there are heaps of them, next time you get off a plane there have a look.... Here's an E220, if i dig around my pics a bit more i will get a C aswell...
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.. McLaren F1 Dick Johnson Racing "Those were the days when the cars were cars, they weren't built out of an Ikea pack like they are now and clothed in plastic; they were real cars." John Bowe Last edited by DJR-351; 06-06-2011 at 07:03 PM. |
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06-06-2011, 07:00 PM | #17 | |||
IWCMOGTVM Club Supporter
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Quote:
Yeah I guess living there all I did was ride in those mercs....I rarely saw anything bar what I listed.
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Daniel |
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06-06-2011, 07:07 PM | #18 | ||
Extreme_Custom
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Melb SE
Posts: 863
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Its Government and Ford and Holden Monopoly and Propaganda.
If Holden Can afford to sell Caprice at half its price to us police then surely it can afford to sell it at lower cost here too. "Greed" Profitability, Shareholders, jobs is whats this is all about. As the op stated take out the taxes and from the German Imports and see Ford and Holden "Quality" Increase and Models Better Spec. Back in Early 2000 Family member Living in UK bought a 1999 Toyota Celica for 1500 Pounds, was little embarrased to drive it aswell. Guess what the same car here was selling for Close to $20k WTF. I have Family in US UK and Germany all with "luxury cars" on their driveways and its like Ford and Holden to them. We are getting Ripped off, Ford and Holden are Not doing us favours by selling us these cars. If imports were sold at overseas prices Ford and Holden would go broke and bust. There has been many similar threads going around in AFF on this Topic, and its sad to read some of biased comments. I love my Fords but I appreciate Quality. I can appreciate a 335kw motor but where is promised "all round package" that Ford has been taken shelter under. FG2 is really gona make it or break it. There was another thread comparing Territory with some overeas ford model. If Ford can afford to build car like that in US why not here. They do ask big bucks Territory. I will soon be buying new car and find it hard to splash my hard earn just on 335kw motor or G6ET. No Disrespect intended. Cheers H
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If You Think AU Are Ugly ! Check my X Out......... Loved by one ... Admired by many ... Envied by most ! RIP - F6 Last edited by divine_afg; 06-06-2011 at 07:18 PM. |
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06-06-2011, 07:43 PM | #19 | ||
FPRJET
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Melbourne
Posts: 1,143
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unfortuantely we live in a tiny little country with a tiny population and due to the volume we cannot compete with the U.S . Simple economics
This applies to most things from overseas. |
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06-06-2011, 07:51 PM | #20 | ||||
The 'Stihl' Man
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: TAS
Posts: 27,584
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Quote:
Point being a Citroen is a world car aswell...big budget = better car (in theory, not always the case). Quote:
Until the Falcon gets a world market it will always have to sacrifice. High tolerance = big dollars. Even the commy, that has atleast had a crack still really isnt any better/worse than the falcon. Thats not to say the falcon is bad, its not, it also comes down to design as much as manufacturing capability. Again, the further up the ladder you go the higher the cost.
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06-06-2011, 09:50 PM | #21 | ||
Regular Member
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You can't compare engine/drive train between cars manufactured for a european market and ours. This is why I didn't compare engine and drive train in my previous post. Many of the countries in europe tax the crap out of people with engine capacities greater than a rice bubble. The UK is especially good at it. Fuel in europe is still more expensive than here. This leads to a market with very small but relatively higher powered engines (for their size when compared to other eqivalent sized engines). To us they are still very underpowered but when you only travel a couple of k a week if that and the annual holiday big trip would be lucky to be more than 100 km then most just put up with underpowered as its not a big deal.
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__________________________ They call it a rort when they're not in on it Mark |
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06-06-2011, 09:56 PM | #22 | ||
PX3 WildTrak & RTV
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Location: Central Coast Sydney
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Last 4 new Falcons - not a warranty item. Fit and finish great...
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[COLOR=Red]I really am Falcon Crazy[/COLOR NextGen Ranger Wildtrak with loads of goodies Sold PX3 Ranger Wildtrak 2.0Ltr UHF, Long Range Tank, Bullbar, Snorkel - 104,000km BA Falcon RTV - Project Ute 265,000km Sold PXII Ranger XLT Cool White. 105,000 Sold PX Ranger XLT in cool white, 151,700km on clock. Sold FGII XR6T Ute LTD Edition in Kinetic. Sold FG XR6 Ute Sold BA Falcon RTV. 251,300km.Was a great mate for last 7 years Sold AUII XLS Ute Sold '85 XF & Crashed 84 XF |
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06-06-2011, 10:08 PM | #23 | |||
FF.Com.Au Hardcore
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Quote:
and they have had a lot of difficulty getting orders for a $29,000 bare Police car. (Bare as in not fully equipped with police equipment, computer work station and lights....) Crown Victoria and V8 Hemi Charger are undercutting it by almost $5,000. It will all end in tears for Holden, unless they start making the Caprice in Canada alongside the Camaro, the costs are going to eat up any profit that might still be there. |
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07-06-2011, 12:52 PM | #24 | |||
FF.Com.Au Hardcore
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I think in Singapore they flog you in the street for misuse and abuse of apostrophes as well.
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"You can't fight stupid people - there's just too many of them" |
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07-06-2011, 01:44 PM | #25 | |||
Moderator
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Quote:
All you hear on forums are people whinging about this and that. Unfortunately .. all the happy owners don't really bother to mention to good things about their vehicles. we must be part of the minority of Ford owners who love their vehicles and really having had that much of an issue. And ... you will also find there will be quite a number of Euro owners out there with their fair share of issues as well ... it's not just limited to the Fords and Holdens.
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07-06-2011, 02:26 PM | #26 | ||
Pity the fool
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This thread seems to be the same as the last 'cheerleading' thread the OP started...
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Fords I own or have owned: 1970 XW Falcon GT replica | 1970 XW Falcon | 1971 XY Fairmont | 1973 ZG Fairlane | 1986 XF Falcon panel van | 1987 XFII Falcon S-Pack | 1988 XF Falcon GLS ute | 1993 EBII Fairmont V8 | 1996 XG Falcon ute | 2000 AU Falcon wagon | 2004 BA Falcon XT | 2012 SZ Territory Titanium AWD Proud to buy Australian and support Ford Australia through thick and thin |
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07-06-2011, 02:38 PM | #27 | |||
FF.Com.Au Hardcore
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Quote:
People want a falcon that rivals a BMW 5 series, yet want it to cost as much as a Hyndai Getz
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07-06-2011, 03:15 PM | #28 | |||
FF.Com.Au Hardcore
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Quote:
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My ride: 2007 Falcon Ute BF XR8 Orange, MTO. |
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07-06-2011, 03:28 PM | #29 | |||
Computer Torque Control
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Location: Ballarat East
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Quote:
While I have never owned a Falcon (or any car for that matter), I know many that have. My grandfather has owned his AU Futura since 1999. The car has done almost 250000 kilometres, including many trips over long distances. The car hasn't been serviced since 2008, and not a single problem arose, whether it be relating to the engine, fit and finish, or even the transmission. The only 'problem' could be that the driver's seat trim is beginning to wear slightly. It has given him twelve years of trouble free motoring, and he swears he is lucky. Before the Futura, he owned a P6 LTD and an XB Falcon 500 (concurrently). An uncle of mine owns a BA XT and a BA XR6 Turbo. Both cars have exhibited no build quality issues, and have proven reliable. The XT has had no problems, whereas the XR6 had to have the 4 speeder replaced at approximately 180000 kilometres. Before that, he owned an NF Fairlane, which was problem free until it was totaled back in early 2004 (with no occupant injury). He swears by Ford, and I don't think he'd purchase anything else. I also agree regarding the Euro owners. The grass really isn't greener on the other side; in fact, I'd go as far as saying it's considerably greener on this side. I have some Euro horror stories (as well as Euro success stories) that I am willing to share if requested to do so. |
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07-06-2011, 05:41 PM | #30 | |||
FF.Com.Au Hardcore
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Quote:
If you don't like your Ford/Falcon/Holden/Purgeot/Citroen/whatever...sell it...it's that simple. And if you're going to try and compare you will always be disappointed...twenty year old street machine or not...
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