The more things change..."Unfair to compare"?

[2011G6E]

Just been cleaning out my shed preparing to sell the house in Bundy, and was reading some of my vast collection of old car magazines as I was packing them away.

One thing that struck me was the similarities to things in those magazines and things being discussed in the motoring press and here on this forum today. Things don't appear to have changed much...

One item was "is it fair to compare foreign cars to Australian cars?", especially things like BMW's and Mercedes Benzes, with our similar, large, rear-drive sedans?
One article was from Car Australia magazine, from 1984, discussing the problems with the Camira. The other was in Wheels magazine from 1992, and discussed the issues with the then-new EA Falcon. They both said similar things, such as that "Local car makers must learn to match the quality control standards of imported cars". They also made a comment about the EA issues and that while claims were made in marketing that it was a "world class" car it "certainly wasn't a Benz W124".

So here we are, well into the 21st century, and still we see people complaining about quality problems with thier new Falcons and Commodores, owners getting annoyed, companies saying we should be happy with what we get, and even owners forgiving them thier sometimes-serious QA problems by saying "aw bless 'em, they do the best for the price they charge", and that it isn't fair to compare them with BMW's and Benzes.

But is it unfair?

The local manufacturers have been building these large cars for half a century...by now they should have a fair idea how to screw together a car correctly, and how to run an efficient quality control program. One owner beset by a series of errors in a Camira was told by the frustrated dealer that "it seems the manufacturer just trusts us to catch all the faults and fix them at the first service".
Sadly, similar statements echoed down the years to follow with other car makers here.

So why has nothing changed? I suspect it's because they know we are a captive audience, with car makers here protected from the big bad world outside our shores, taxing the buggery out of anything that might compete with our beloved (and flawed) local product.

Lower class BMW's and Benzes are luxury cars here for one reason, and one reason only: import duties and taxes slapped on them to artificially inflate the price, coupled with a huge barrier stopping us from driving new left hand drive cars here freely, unlike just about anywhere else in the world.
Got to Germany, and you will see taxi ranks full of cars that in Australia would be parked in the CEO's reserved parking space.

It's always fun to do a bit of reading of old car magazines to see the opinions and stuff that went on at the time in the motoring industry.
The more things change, the more they stay the same, it appears...

[tankclare]

I have a box full of old car mags. I wish Street Machine would give away another phase 3 gtho...

[vztrt]

So what's the difference between this thread and the other one you started?

http://www.fordforums.com.au/showthread.php?t=11330661

[2011G6E]

The difference is that I hadn't re-read my old magazines...it struck me as odd that the exact same sentiments were being expressed now as in, for example, the late seventies and early eighties, and nothing appears to have changed.
People still complain about Australian-made product, people still roundly defend that product even knowing the faults really shouldn't exist for the price we pay.

The main point though is the question "Is it unfair to compare"? I don't think it is, seeing as how the cars people "compare" Falcons and Commodores to are, in thier home market, nothing special and basically thier version of a Commodore or Falcon.

The quality control issues are really linked to this question.

[Polyal]

"the price we pay"...dont buy it then.

You cannot build a Mercedes on a falcon/commy budget...simple as that. There are no better cars than the falcon/commy is you look at long term ownership, running costs and functionality.

In saying that there are areas in which the locals give as good as, if not better performance, thats when people start comparing.

What you have to judge is are the others work the extra $x for what you get, and that will be different for everyone because generally we prioritize different things.

[MarkAW]

Originally Posted by Polyal

"the price we pay"...dont buy it then.

You cannot build a Mercedes on a falcon/commy budget...simple as that.

I don't quite agree with you there. Providing that we are talking comparable vehicles, a basic 6 cyl 4 door sedan Merc and a Falcon base model, there's very little difference between the two when you get to the actual fit and machine of the body and trim. I'm not going to compare engine and drive train here as most people are only concerned about getting in and turning the key. Its the body and trim that attract most buyers. Sure in the body there are probably some extra electronic doohickies but apart from that the Merc and a Falcon have pretty much the same sort of componentry.

When Ford build their bodies there is an allowance for fit in all their designs, this is a standard engineering principle so that two components can come together and have a further allowance for the hundreds of other components which chain together to create the body and trim. The quality of this fit in the falcon is terrible yet Merc seem to be able to get it right, why? Because they have used their years of experience to continually improved the look and assembly of their product. If a joint between 2 plastic peices in this years model was a bit misaligned due to the type of connection then next years model will be changed. At Ford its "well we didn't get that many complaints" near enough close enough, we'll use the same joint again.

Its no wonder more and more Australians are migrating to other better made vehicles from the european market. They cost a bit more and usually for a similar price you have a much smaller vehicle, but thats a hit Australians seem to be willing to make these days. Loyalty to brand names is rapidly disappearing so if Ford or the other Aus company want to continue to sell in this country a cultural change in their engineering is needed.

[4.0i OHC]

Originally Posted by MarkAW

I don't quite agree with you there. Providing that we are talking comparable vehicles, a basic 6 cyl 4 door sedan Merc and a Falcon base model, there's very little difference between the two when you get to the actual fit and machine of the body and trim. I'm not going to compare engine and drive train here as most people are only concerned about getting in and turning the key.

When it comes to the engine and drivetrain, the Falcon will most likely obliterate the Mercedes. That's a point which many buyers seem to either not notice or put up with.

It's a different story for BMW though.

[Ford_The_Win]

I saw a video recently that gave a lot of insight into the way GM assembled cars circa 2000, I imagine Ford and Holden in Aus use a lot of similar principles. Everything is allowed a certain tolerance in terms of fit and issues are usually only tackled following customer complaints. Some panels were given 4-5mm gap tolerances! The boot doesn't line up? Cut down the rubber stopper.

Step inside a German car and this is clearly not the way they do things.

[2011G6E]

Originally Posted by Ford_The_Win

I saw a video recently that gave a lot of insight into the way GM assembled cars circa 2000, I imagine Ford and Holden in Aus use a lot of similar principles. Everything is allowed a certain tolerance in terms of fit and issues are usually only tackled following customer complaints. Some panels were given 4-5mm gap tolerances! The boot doesn't line up? Cut down the rubber stopper.

Step inside a German car and this is clearly not the way they do things.

And that's the point...in Germany for example, a Merc or BMW is a "normal family sedan". My nephew married a Scottish girl and now lives in Edinburgh, and on his first visit to Germany to see her uncle who lives in Berlin, he was surprised to see an S-class in the driveway. It was only an S380, but when he asked what the guy did for a living, he was a mere factory worker who decided to "splash out" on a more luxurous model than his previous C-class. He didn't think it was anything much out of the ordinary.
As I said, you will see cars in taxi ranks in Europe that here would be in the executive car park area of a business. So it is fair to compare.

From reading the old car magazines though, even nearly thirty years ago car makers were crying foul when this was done...

[Ford_The_Win]

I suppose it depends on what extent you're willing to put up with poor fit and finish in return for the superior base model drivetrain. Yes the base model Merc will crap all over Ford and Holden for fit and finish but the base engine wouldn't pull the skin off rice pudding. German drivetrains and suspensions are also way over-engineered, blowing out the cost of repair/replacement and making it very difficult for backyard mechanics to have a go. But very few people these days even know how to check their oil so it's not something that is considered.

[aussie muscle]

Originally Posted by Polyal

You cannot build a Mercedes on a falcon/commy budget...simple as that.

But even if you compare them to "Mr Average" cars like Citroen, we still don't come out on top.

[4.0i OHC]

Originally Posted by Ford_The_Win

I suppose it depends on what extent you're willing to put up with poor fit and finish in return for the superior base model drivetrain. Yes the base model Merc will crap all over Ford and Holden for fit and finish but the base engine wouldn't pull the skin off rice pudding. German drivetrains and suspensions are also way over-engineered, blowing out the cost of repair/replacement and making it very difficult for backyard mechanics to have a go. But very few people these days even know how to check their oil so it's not something that is considered.

I'd be one of the people willing to put up with these fit and finish problems. I don't know why so many would pay so much more, and put up with a car that doesn't go or handle, just so they can have interior plastics that may fit slightly better. The Falcon's not perfect, but it's considerably better than your standard Mercedes-Benz.

As a side note, my father's Mercedes has been plagued with many fit and finish (and reliability) problems. As well as that, it's got a slow, torqueless, whiny, unrefined V6, and handles like garbage. It pulls left, with absolutely zero steering feel. It's impossible to keep in a straight line. The equivalent base model Falcon, the AU (with live axle) is leaps and bounds ahead. And from what I've read (in reviews etc.), things really haven't changed a bit.

[GasoLane]

Originally Posted by Polyal

You cannot build a Mercedes on a falcon/commy budget...simple as that. There are no better cars than the falcon/commy is you look at long term ownership, running costs and functionality.

Depends what you want....

Mercedes C 200 $58,000

FORD FALCON G6E TURBO $59,000

[DJR-351]

Originally Posted by GasOLane

Depends what you want....

Mercedes C 200 $58,000

Funnily enough you will see heaps of these in Singapore.....as Taxi's...

[vztrt]

Originally Posted by DJR-351

Funnily enough you will see heaps of these in Singapore.....as Taxi's...

No you won't.

Main taxi's are old Toyota's. Hyundai's and Kia's are the newer ones. There's a couple of prius and CNG taxis but they are mainly diesels.

[DJR-351]

Originally Posted by vztrt

No you won't.

Main taxi's are old Toyota's. Hyundai's and Kia's are the newer ones. There's a couple of prius and CNG taxis but they are mainly diesels.

Wrong....!!! just got back from there last week and one took us to the airport, we go on average 4 times a year (for the last 4 and a half years) and always see them running around (more E220's than C's), also i have a buisiness card on my bloody fridge with their contact details and a picture of one, they have a contract with the company i work for (head office is on Beach Road) and meet us at the airport or docks.......

And i didn't say they where the main ones, just that there are heaps of them, next time you get off a plane there have a look....

Here's an E220, if i dig around my pics a bit more i will get a C aswell...

[vztrt]

Originally Posted by DJR-351

Wrong....!!! just got back from there last week and one took us to the airport, we go on average 4 times a year (for the last 4 and a half years) and always see them running around (and E220's), also i have a buisiness card on my bloody fridge with their contact details and a picture of one, they have a contract with the company i work for (head office is on Beach Road) and meet us at the airport or docks.......

And i didn't say they where the main ones, just that there are heaps of them, next time you get off a plane there have a look....

Yeah I guess living there all I did was ride in those mercs....I rarely saw anything bar what I listed.

[divine_afg]

Its Government and Ford and Holden Monopoly and Propaganda.
If Holden Can afford to sell Caprice at half its price to us police then surely it can afford to sell it at lower cost here too. "Greed" Profitability, Shareholders, jobs is whats this is all about.
As the op stated take out the taxes and from the German Imports and see Ford and Holden "Quality" Increase and Models Better Spec.
Back in Early 2000 Family member Living in UK bought a 1999 Toyota Celica
for 1500 Pounds, was little embarrased to drive it aswell. Guess what the same car here was selling for Close to $20k WTF.
I have Family in US UK and Germany all with "luxury cars" on their driveways and its like Ford and Holden to them.

We are getting Ripped off, Ford and Holden are Not doing us favours by selling us these cars. If imports were sold at overseas prices Ford and Holden would go broke and bust.

There has been many similar threads going around in AFF on this Topic, and its sad to read some of biased comments.

I love my Fords but I appreciate Quality. I can appreciate a 335kw motor but
where is promised "all round package" that Ford has been taken shelter under.
FG2 is really gona make it or break it. There was another thread comparing Territory with some overeas ford model. If Ford can afford to build car like that in US why not here. They do ask big bucks Territory.

I will soon be buying new car and find it hard to splash my hard earn just on 335kw motor or G6ET. No Disrespect intended.



Cheers
H

[stang65]

unfortuantely we live in a tiny little country with a tiny population and due to the volume we cannot compete with the U.S . Simple economics

This applies to most things from overseas.

[Polyal]

Originally Posted by aussie muscle

But even if you compare them to "Mr Average" cars like Citroen, we still don't come out on top.

Since when are Citroen average? Yes the French can lack quality at times but every manufacturer has its moments.

Point being a Citroen is a world car aswell...big budget = better car (in theory, not always the case).

Originally Posted by GasOLane

Depends what you want....

Mercedes C 200 $58,000

FORD FALCON G6E TURBO $59,000

OK yes those cars share the fact that they have 4 doors, 4 wheels etc but they are very different, size alone. A C class is tiny, a mondeo has more room than it. Mums is a nice car but its a shoe box. C240 is dreadfully underpowered and if you ask me its "laggy" off the line aswell....great city get about, thats it.

Until the Falcon gets a world market it will always have to sacrifice. High tolerance = big dollars.

Even the commy, that has atleast had a crack still really isnt any better/worse than the falcon.

Thats not to say the falcon is bad, its not, it also comes down to design as much as manufacturing capability. Again, the further up the ladder you go the higher the cost.

[MarkAW]

You can't compare engine/drive train between cars manufactured for a european market and ours. This is why I didn't compare engine and drive train in my previous post. Many of the countries in europe tax the crap out of people with engine capacities greater than a rice bubble. The UK is especially good at it. Fuel in europe is still more expensive than here. This leads to a market with very small but relatively higher powered engines (for their size when compared to other eqivalent sized engines). To us they are still very underpowered but when you only travel a couple of k a week if that and the annual holiday big trip would be lucky to be more than 100 km then most just put up with underpowered as its not a big deal.

[Falcon_Crazy]

Last 4 new Falcons - not a warranty item. Fit and finish great...

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by divine_afg

Its Government and Ford and Holden Monopoly and Propaganda.
If Holden Can afford to sell Caprice at half its price to us police then surely it can afford to sell it at lower cost here too. "Greed" Profitability, Shareholders, jobs is whats this is all about.

But here's the Rub, Holden spent $200 million to develop the Caprice PPV
and they have had a lot of difficulty getting orders for a $29,000 bare Police car.
(Bare as in not fully equipped with police equipment, computer work station and lights....)

Crown Victoria and V8 Hemi Charger are undercutting it by almost $5,000.

It will all end in tears for Holden, unless they start making the Caprice in Canada
alongside the Camaro, the costs are going to eat up any profit that might still be there.

[Ducati888]

Originally Posted by vztrt

No you won't.

Main taxi's are old Toyota's. Hyundai's and Kia's are the newer ones. There's a couple of prius and CNG taxis but they are mainly diesels.

I think in Singapore they flog you in the street for misuse and abuse of apostrophes as well.

[Mechan1k]

Originally Posted by Falcon_Crazy

Last 4 new Falcons - not a warranty item. Fit and finish great...

I know what you mean.
All you hear on forums are people whinging about this and that.
Unfortunately .. all the happy owners don't really bother to mention to good things about their vehicles.

we must be part of the minority of Ford owners who love their vehicles and really having had that much of an issue.


And ... you will also find there will be quite a number of Euro owners out there with their fair share of issues as well ... it's not just limited to the Fords and Holdens.

[Road_Warrior]

This thread seems to be the same as the last 'cheerleading' thread the OP started...

[DBourne]

Originally Posted by stang65

unfortuantely we live in a tiny little country with a tiny population and due to the volume we cannot compete with the U.S . Simple economics

This applies to most things from overseas.

Ding, Ding, Ding, Ding!

People want a falcon that rivals a BMW 5 series, yet want it to cost as much as a Hyndai Getz

[aussie muscle]

Originally Posted by Falcon_Crazy

Last 4 new Falcons - not a warranty item. Fit and finish great...

my BF falcon is just out of warranty, first thing went wrong last week, the auto-lights stopped turning off.

[4.0i OHC]

Originally Posted by Mechan1k

I know what you mean.
All you hear on forums are people whinging about this and that.
Unfortunately .. all the happy owners don't really bother to mention to good things about their vehicles.

we must be part of the minority of Ford owners who love their vehicles and really having had that much of an issue.


And ... you will also find there will be quite a number of Euro owners out there with their fair share of issues as well ... it's not just limited to the Fords and Holdens.

Since you never hear from happy Falcon owners regarding their cars, I thought I might share a few experiences.

While I have never owned a Falcon (or any car for that matter), I know many that have. My grandfather has owned his AU Futura since 1999. The car has done almost 250000 kilometres, including many trips over long distances. The car hasn't been serviced since 2008, and not a single problem arose, whether it be relating to the engine, fit and finish, or even the transmission. The only 'problem' could be that the driver's seat trim is beginning to wear slightly. It has given him twelve years of trouble free motoring, and he swears he is lucky. Before the Futura, he owned a P6 LTD and an XB Falcon 500 (concurrently).

An uncle of mine owns a BA XT and a BA XR6 Turbo. Both cars have exhibited no build quality issues, and have proven reliable. The XT has had no problems, whereas the XR6 had to have the 4 speeder replaced at approximately 180000 kilometres. Before that, he owned an NF Fairlane, which was problem free until it was totaled back in early 2004 (with no occupant injury). He swears by Ford, and I don't think he'd purchase anything else.

I also agree regarding the Euro owners. The grass really isn't greener on the other side; in fact, I'd go as far as saying it's considerably greener on this side. I have some Euro horror stories (as well as Euro success stories) that I am willing to share if requested to do so.

[SEZ213]

Originally Posted by Road_Warrior

This thread seems to be the same as the last 'cheerleading' thread the OP started...

Yep...100% agree...

If you don't like your Ford/Falcon/Holden/Purgeot/Citroen/whatever...sell it...it's that simple.

And if you're going to try and compare you will always be disappointed...twenty year old street machine or not...