So like me you thought it was OK to plug a 10amp device into a 15amp outlet.

[whynot]

Originally Posted by Warrenk

Never had an issue plugging a 10amp plug in a 15a GPO. I am a licensed electrician and never heard it is illegal to do so. The earth pin on a 10amp plug should be able to open the shutter on a 15a GPO.

Yup, I agree with Warrenk. I too am a licenced electrician.

The design of the 10 amp, 15 amp, 20 amp, 25 amp, and 32 amp single phase outlets is that the small can go into the bigger, but not the other way around. The physical interlock is the size and shape of the earth pin that increases with size. The 10 amp plug can go into (and open the shutters) of the 15 amp.

See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AS/NZS_3112 for pictures.

Not sure why DETA decided to depart from a very long standing practice.

Those arguing about the upstream protection size are barking up the wrong tree here as well. Most domestic power circuit are either protected by a 16 amp fuse or a 20 amp circuit breaker. (And, these days, hopefully everything is also covered by an RCD.) If one looks at the operating characteristic of both, in the overload part of the curve, they are about the same. The 20A circuit breaker is much, much, better in clearing short circuits than the 16 amp fuse.

When putting a 10A plug into a 15A socket, thermal overload is not a problem as the device is limited to under 10A. The only concern is having sufficient low impedance as to clear a fault using the overcurrent part of the protective curve. Given the size of the conductor in the appliance, this is not a concern either as the cable fault rating for 1mm2 flexible is 1.2x104 A²s

There are a few options ...

1) Depending on the size of the wiring and the selected circuit protection to the existing 15A outlets (e.g. 4mm cable protected by a 20A CB per 15A outlet) it is permissible under Table C9 (page 484 of AS3000) to have up to eight additional 10A socket-outlets in that circuit (under certain circumstances).

2) There are legit 15A socket-outlet to 10A plug adapters that incorporate a miniature 10A CB. This might be a cheaper option than getting a sparkie out to fix the existing 15A outlet or installing a 10A beside it.

[X-AHH]

Originally Posted by whynot

Yup, I agree with Warrenk. I too am a licenced electrician.

The design of the 10 amp, 15 amp, 20 amp, 25 amp, and 32 amp single phase outlets is that the small can go into the bigger, but not the other way around. The physical interlock is the size and shape of the earth pin that increases with size. The 10 amp plug can go into (and open the shutters) of the 15 amp.

See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AS/NZS_3112 for pictures.

Not sure why DETA decided to depart from a very long standing practice.

Those arguing about the upstream protection size are barking up the wrong tree here as well. Most domestic power circuit are either protected by a 16 amp fuse or a 20 amp circuit breaker. (And, these days, hopefully everything is also covered by an RCD.) If one looks at the operating characteristic of both, in the overload part of the curve, they are about the same. The 20A circuit breaker is much, much, better in clearing short circuits than the 16 amp fuse.

When putting a 10A plug into a 15A socket, thermal overload is not a problem as the device is limited to under 10A. The only concern is having sufficient low impedance as to clear a fault using the overcurrent part of the protective curve. Given the size of the conductor in the appliance, this is not a concern either as the cable fault rating for 1mm2 flexible is 1.2x104 A²s

There are a few options ...

1) Depending on the size of the wiring and the selected circuit protection to the existing 15A outlets (e.g. 4mm cable protected by a 20A CB per 15A outlet) it is permissible under Table C9 (page 484 of AS3000) to have up to eight additional 10A socket-outlets in that circuit (under certain circumstances).

2) There are legit 15A socket-outlet to 10A plug adapters that incorporate a miniature 10A CB. This might be a cheaper option than getting a sparkie out to fix the existing 15A outlet or installing a 10A beside it.

I understood everything that you posted and we all understand that you are a sparky (Great achievement by the way) but too much information will confuse people who aren't.

[FoxtrotGolfXray 5.0]

Originally Posted by whynot

.
Those arguing about the upstream protection size are barking up the wrong tree here as well. Most domestic power circuit are either protected by a 16 amp fuse or a 20 amp circuit breaker. (And, these days, hopefully everything is also covered by an RCD.) If one looks at the operating characteristic of both, in the overload part of the curve, they are about the same. The 20A circuit breaker is much, much, better in clearing short circuits than the 16 amp fuse.

I take it that the bold comment was directed at me. At least you're clued in to my concern being about fault current and not normal operating draw (that answers b0son's question). Appreciate the explanation you've offered, wn.

I'll admit that this is not my area of expertise. But I do have some knowledge of the subject. I'm an electrical engineer (I can hear all you sparkies groaning right now ) although I haven't really practiced in that space for a few years now, anf I have undertaken electrical inspectors training (for those who don't know, these are the folks that check on the work licenced sparkies complete), although, for full disclosure, that was done years ago and in never sat the exam, so my competency wasn't assessed. One thing I did learn though, is that even the soarkies on our course had a lot of different views on some of the trickier elements of as300 and a lot held incorrect views according to our trainer. A bit like asking people on these forums questions about some of our road rules

And I also did a stack of research when I was setting up my 240v system for my camper trailer, and I specifically recall reading (perhaps as3001? ) that you can't plug in a 10a plug and lead into a 15a socket outlet at a caravan park so I ended up getting one of these

https://www.discounttrader.com.au/pr...wer-block-box/. (that might help blue, but he probs won't need the ip54 rating)

Perhaps that is what I'm thinking of. I don't have access to the standards at the moment, so I'll bug out until I get a chance to look at them, and chat to our electrical compliance officer next week. I'm not above admitting I've got it wrong, if that turns out to be the case, and I'll retract my previous posts if so.

[whynot]

Originally Posted by FoxtrotGolfXray 5.0

I take it that the bold comment was directed at me.

Never, ever, let the opportunity to ruffle the feathers of an electrical engineer go by ... (with a really big nudge and a wink).

Originally Posted by FoxtrotGolfXray 5.0

although I haven't really practiced in that space for a few years now

Yeah, me too. But I still have my ticket and occasionally dabble with the tools.

Originally Posted by FoxtrotGolfXray 5.0

... that you can't plug in a 10a plug and lead into a 15a socket outlet at a caravan park

That surprised me. I can clearly recall being taught by the TAFE instructors that the design of a 15A outlet was specifically done to allow the acceptance of a 10A plug. When this topic came up, my first impression was that there had been a standard change recently that I had missed. Unfortunately (and this really makes me grind my teeth), access to AS3112 requires a payment of $250. After quite a bit of digging around, I am reasonably sure that this hasn't changed for this use case. But, if I am wrong, I will get an admin to edit my post.

Originally Posted by FoxtrotGolfXray 5.0

At least you're clued in to my concern being about fault current

I am struggling to understand why you would be concerned about the potential change to the loop and Z-loop impedance characteristics. Most domestic circuits are protected by a 20A circuit breaker. Most dedicated 15A socket-outlets are also protected by a 20A circuit breaker as well. The chief difference is the permissible number of outlets per circuit under Table C9. A 1mm2 conductor inside an appliance has to withstand the same I2/T curve in both examples.

This AS3008 on-line calculator is a handy way to check. Tick the boxes for short-circuit current rating and loop impedance.

https://www.jcalc.net/cable-sizing-calculator-as3008

While we are at it, there is also a legitimate way to connect a 15A plug into a 10A socket - provided - there is a 10A circuit breaker between the plug and socket. This limits the maximum draw to 10A, and so can be legally installed in the 10A outlet. A use case for this is when a caravan is parked at home and it just needs trickle supply for the fridge and maybe a few lights.

As an aside, I started to write up a technique on how to correctly apply lubrication to a 15A outlet. But it started to read like a novel found at the back of the shop, and I though better of it.

[FoxtrotGolfXray 5.0]

Originally Posted by whynot

Never, ever, let the opportunity to ruffle the feathers of an electrical engineer go by ... (with a really big nudge and a wink).



Yeah, me too. But I still have my ticket and occasionally dabble with the tools.



That surprised me. I can clearly recall being taught by the TAFE instructors that the design of a 15A outlet was specifically done to allow the acceptance of a 10A plug. When this topic came up, my first impression was that there had been a standard change recently that I had missed. Unfortunately (and this really makes me grind my teeth), access to AS3112 requires a payment of $250. After quite a bit of digging around, I am reasonably sure that this hasn't changed for this use case. But, if I am wrong, I will get an admin to edit my post.



I am struggling to understand why you would be concerned about the potential change to the loop and Z-loop impedance characteristics. Most domestic circuits are protected by a 20A circuit breaker. Most dedicated 15A socket-outlets are also protected by a 20A circuit breaker as well. The chief difference is the permissible number of outlets per circuit under Table C9. A 1mm2 conductor inside an appliance has to withstand the same I2/T curve in both examples.

This AS3008 on-line calculator is a handy way to check. Tick the boxes for short-circuit current rating and loop impedance.

https://www.jcalc.net/cable-sizing-calculator-as3008

While we are at it, there is also a legitimate way to connect a 15A plug into a 10A socket - provided - there is a 10A circuit breaker between the plug and socket. This limits the maximum draw to 10A, and so can be legally installed in the 10A outlet. A use case for this is when a caravan is parked at home and it just needs trickle supply for the fridge and maybe a few lights.

As an aside, I started to write up a technique on how to correctly apply lubrication to a 15A outlet. But it started to read like a novel found at the back of the shop, and I though better of it.

I don't have access to the standards at home, but a trawl through the Internet found this. This is what I was referring to for my camper trailer setup (my bold):

What you wish to do is covered by Australian Standard AS/NZS3001 and these rules are legally enforced in each Australian State.

Note several considerations of these Rules:
1) You are permitted to use a flexible cable to supply "transportable structures" which includes motor vehicles being used for accomodation.
2) This cable is required to be rated at 15A, be of "heavy duty" and not less than 10m long.

As3001 is the standard for Electrical installations - Transportable structures and vehicles including their site supplies

I had assumed, and perhaps incorrectly, that this requirement was based upon as3000 requirements and therefore applicable to blues case. It may be the case that this requirement is only required in the case of transportable structures and vehicles.

Hope that clarifies the basis of my input.

[gkhn]

I always used this on a 10amp power outlet while testing faulty devices. That way the building's curcuit/fuse/breaker is isolated and protected in case the device pulled more than 10amps.
https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/114396538968
https://www.arlec.com.au/wp-content/files/PB94.pdf
Make sure you get the genuine Arlec one. With other brands, you are playing with fire.

I don't see why this cannot be plugged into a 15amp power outlet.
Plugging 10amp into 15amp.. If the device is faulty, it could pull more than 10amps and won't break your buildings breaker or may cause fire. Hence the device.

[Citroënbender]

I’m sure this belongs more in The Bar - it’s scarcely “General automotive related talk”.

Nonetheless, it reminded me of this, where some of the “conclusions” suggested by the author raise an eyebrow. https://www.thehogring.com/2019/05/0...-airbag-seams/

[X-AHH]

Originally Posted by whynot

As an aside, I started to write up a technique on how to correctly apply lubrication to a 15A outlet. But it started to read like a novel found at the back of the shop, and I though better of it.

I covered this. Despite the fact that you ""though" better of the situation, if you have a better way to achieve a good result, why not share your wealth of knowledge with the rest of us.

Don't worry about it sounding like a novel, you've made us accustomed to that already: lol

[whynot]

Originally Posted by xahh

Don't worry about it sounding like a novel, you've made us accustomed to that already: lol

That was a joke on my part.

Sorry that you don't like the detail. My view is that most people here are smart enough to read it and figure things out. If they are going to get confused, then lack of detail won't help either.

[X-AHH]

Originally Posted by whynot

That was a joke on my part.

No harm done, were just all trying to help people in the best way possible with the knowledge we've all accumulated over the decades.

[SumoDog68]

It is ok to plug in 10A into 15A outlet . No issue whatsoever . 15A outlets you have are protected separately because they are dedicated circuits . You can only have one 15A outlet on one dedicated circuit in domestic installation.
Anything that you plug into those outlets does not necessarily pull rated outlet current at all or at all times .