Buyer Beware!!!

DougM · 28-09-2010, 08:57 AM

Hi everyone.....

Just wanted to let you know about a private sale that's gone terribly wrong.......

One of the project managers at work recently bought a near new Toyota Hilux SR5, privately. The car is financed through a broker. The finance company did a REVS check and the car was clear. My mate also did his own REVS check for his own peace of mind.

It turns out that the car has had a body swap!!!!!! The chassis is from a base model Hilux which was bought legitimately. The thieves stole a top of the range SR5 in the Northern Territory and swapped the complete body from the SR5 onto the base model chassis....This way the chassis and engine number cleared with REVS.......Apparently the SR5's are now huge business with thieves.......

Here is the clincher.....The police came and impounded the car, no ifs or buts..........It looks like my mate is stuck paying off a car he no longer owns even though he has done nothing wrong!!!!!!!! What really gets under my skin is that even though the title of the car is with the finance company. he loses out.......No one should lose out because of these ruthless thieves but it just drives me mad that the big companies are covered but the average guy gets bent over.........It's just wrong.....He has 2 young kids and is now stuck with this huge debt and no car......

My mate has spoken to a few solicitors, the usual TV/Radio programmes and they all say that there is probably little he can do about it.....

So all I can say is, be very, very careful if buying privately!!!!

Take care.

Doug.

Kryton · 28-09-2010, 09:17 AM

If the REVS check was infact done, paid for and printed out, its not your mates problem - thats the whole point of the check.

I also find it very hard to believe that the check was done properly - paid for the full check and not just the free online one.
If it had have been done properly, the body number would have been checked, the history of the entire car would have also been checked as well.

The story sounds fishy and doesnt add up.

Either your mate didnt actually do any checks and has just done his money, or the checks were done properly and he has nothing to worry about.
What your saying about him losing out if the check was indeed done properly is a load of crap.

DougM · 28-09-2010, 09:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by davway

If the REVS check was infact done, paid for and printed out, its not your mates problem - thats the whole point of the check.

I also find it very hard to believe that the check was done properly - paid for the full check and not just the free online one.
If it had have been done properly, the body number would have been checked, the history of the entire car would have also been checked as well.

The story sounds fishy and doesnt add up.

Either your mate didnt actually do any checks and has just done his money, or the checks were done properly and he has nothing to worry about.
What your saying about him losing out if the check was indeed done properly is a load of crap.

The finance company did their own REVS check......That's what I've been told. And yes, he has the proper REVS print out.....Apparently there is some disclaimer fine print somewhere.......

4Vman · 28-09-2010, 09:58 AM

First question, if the VIN's (engine/chassis) are from the base vehicle and not from the SR5 and it was cleared how did the police know its a body swap?

Smoke Pursuit · 28-09-2010, 10:10 AM

Yeh this doesnt add up.

When doing REV checks please make sure you put in the VIN, ENGINE & REGISTRATION number!!

Dealers maybe a few grand more expensive but atleast you dont have to go thru this bs!

LukeGT · 28-09-2010, 10:11 AM

The new body might have data dots on all the panels

DougM · 28-09-2010, 10:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 4Vman

First question, if the VIN's (engine/chassis) are from the base vehicle and not from the SR5 and it was cleared how did the police know its a body swap?

That's the first question I asked my mate............

The cops were not saying much at all.......I suspected that maybe someone has been busted already and possibly the remains of one or both vehicles have been found??????

XR Martin · 28-09-2010, 10:25 AM

No one noticed the chassis and body number was different?

XWGT · 28-09-2010, 10:38 AM

Next question

Who effectively is attempting to take possesion of the car?
Prior insurance company?
Police wouldnt care less expect for a conviction of the original theives

XR Martin · 28-09-2010, 10:49 AM

Also realise a REVS check doesnt cover you if its stolen, it only covers you if theres finance on it.

I can already picture the sale...
It was a bargain of the century; person selling car wasnt the owner, it was his mother's/father's/sister's who doesnt speak English; person was of MED.

302 XC · 28-09-2010, 11:07 AM

Bit suss,
All corresponding numbers were cleared, but now an issue ???

IF there was money owing on it ,wouldnt that have to be paid up before changing ownership
OR
I hope not,your mate just paid the seller direct and the car was repoed for the financier

divine_afg · 28-09-2010, 11:25 AM

How did your mate pay for the car? cash/cheque/bank transfer.
Did he get letter from Seller for the sale of the car.

4Vman · 28-09-2010, 11:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DougM

That's the first question I asked my mate............

The cops were not saying much at all.......I suspected that maybe someone has been busted already and possibly the remains of one or both vehicles have been found??????

That would be my guess, they tracked the transfer of sale due to a previous bust/investigation on the seller and seized the vehicle pending an "identity" inspection....

The issue wont be with the numbers because they're "clear", the issue will be with the seller and associated transactions with them.

This isn't a failing of the REVS check, its simply a fraudulent transaction.

*** EDIT***

The other thing that should stand out like dogs bits is the VIN wont match that for a SR5......

The description on the transfer wont match the vehicle records.

Smoke Pursuit · 28-09-2010, 12:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by XR6 Martin

Also realise a REVS check doesnt cover you if its stolen, it only covers you if theres finance on it.

I can already picture the sale...
It was a bargain of the century; person selling car wasnt the owner, it was his mother's/father's/sister's who doesnt speak English; person was of MED.

It also tells you if the vehicle is stolen...

4Vman · 28-09-2010, 12:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bfiipursuit

It also tells you if the vehicle is stolen...

LOL.. yes, its pretty hard to transfer ownership or register a VIN you don't actually own, or has been reported stolen...

Even without a REVS check alarm bells would go off everywhere the min the paperwork was lodged.

XR Martin · 28-09-2010, 02:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bfiipursuit

It also tells you if the vehicle is stolen...

But it cant guarantee whether its not stolen or not. Simply because it could have been stolen 10 minutes ago and hasnt been reported.

RedHotGT · 28-09-2010, 03:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DougM

Hi everyone.....

Just wanted to let you know about a private sale that's gone terribly wrong.......

One of the project managers at work recently bought a near new Toyota Hilux SR5, privately. The car is financed through a broker. The finance company did a REVS check and the car was clear. My mate also did his own REVS check for his own peace of mind.

It turns out that the car has had a body swap!!!!!! The chassis is from a base model Hilux which was bought legitimately. The thieves stole a top of the range SR5 in the Northern Territory and swapped the complete body from the SR5 onto the base model chassis....This way the chassis and engine number cleared with REVS.......Apparently the SR5's are now huge business with thieves.......

Here is the clincher.....The police came and impounded the car, no ifs or buts..........It looks like my mate is stuck paying off a car he no longer owns even though he has done nothing wrong!!!!!!!! What really gets under my skin is that even though the title of the car is with the finance company. he loses out.......No one should lose out because of these ruthless thieves but it just drives me mad that the big companies are covered but the average guy gets bent over.........It's just wrong.....He has 2 young kids and is now stuck with this huge debt and no car......

My mate has spoken to a few solicitors, the usual TV/Radio programmes and they all say that there is probably little he can do about it.....

So all I can say is, be very, very careful if buying privately!!!!

Take care.

Doug.

I take it that nobody 'inspected' the vehicle?? There are a number reputable companies that do vehicle inspections (I can certainly think of one that is constantly advertised in Just Cars Magazine) and they would cost less than the dramas that your friend is going through now.

REVS will tell you if the vehicle has an encumberance (financial interests)
REVS will tell you if the vehicle has been reported stolen (though some do slip through the cracks)
REVS will sometimes tell you if the vehicle has been a 'repairable write-off' (though some also slip thru the cracks here)

Sounds like the old 'switcheroo' rebody to me... But again, an inspection would have raised questions and most likely stopped this issue from happening...

RedHotGT · 28-09-2010, 03:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by XR6 Martin

But it cant guarantee whether its not stolen or not. Simply because it could have been stolen 10 minutes ago and hasnt been reported.

Chances are if the car was stolen 10 minutes ago - you haven't had time to list it on carsales/ebay, take enquiries, and sell the car...

Though - you might be speedy gonzales... I'm not sure...

XR Martin · 28-09-2010, 04:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by loftie

Chances are if the car was stolen 10 minutes ago - you haven't had time to list it on carsales/ebay, take enquiries, and sell the car...

Though - you might be speedy gonzales... I'm not sure...

What if you were on holiday overseas for weeks, a car could easily be stolen and sold off in that time....
And then theres the delay between telling the police its stolen, and how long before REVs is notified.

Which is why REVs, or the Police cannot guarantee whether a vehicle at any particular moment has been stolen or not.

REVs can only determine with certainty whether there is a financial interest on a car at a particular time.

From REVS

Quote:

A REGISTER OF FINANCIAL INTERESTS - NOT A TITLE REGISTER

The Register set up by the Act is a register of financial interest. It is not a register of title as is the Torren Title Register. Accordingly, the information held on the Register in relation to stolen vehicles is not guaranteed by the Government and has no legal effect. There are also other matters that may affect the title of goods such as, bankruptcy, company sequestration and Family Court orders.

The financial interests covered by the Act embrace all manner of securities, including bill of sale, chattel mortgage, hire-purchase, hiring, lease, licence, bailment and all forms of title-retention devices (eg. "Romalpa clauses"

4Vman · 28-09-2010, 04:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by XR6 Martin

What if you were on holiday overseas for weeks, a car could easily be stolen and sold off in that time....
And then theres the delay between telling the police its stolen, and how long before REVs is notified.

Which is why REVs, or the Police cannot guarantee whether a vehicle at any particular moment has been stolen or not.

REVs can only determine with certainty whether there is a financial interest on a car at a particular time.

From REVS

How on earth can you advertise and sell a car with a stolen VIN???

You'd be done as soon as the VIN was flagged as stolen.

302 XC · 28-09-2010, 04:32 PM

Ok so your on holidays and your car is stolen then sold on

The financier will investigate for the transaction,would they not

I had something happen along a dodgy line few years ago when buying a truck
The seller wanted me to pay him the total amount
I said 2 cheques champ,
1 for your financier with all corresponding documents for clear title
and the 2nd cheque to you for any different between the payout and the sale price
Lets say he went absolutely mental
"none of your business what i owe" blah blah blah
Thought it was a simple request
Needless to say i bought elsewhere

RedHotGT · 28-09-2010, 04:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 4Vman

How on earth can you advertise and sell a car with a stolen VIN???

You'd be done as soon as the VIN was flagged as stolen.

It can be done very easily 4Vman...

Say I drive past your car on the side of the road... (particularly if you are in VIC) I can get the Vin, engine, rego without even stopping the car... jjust through VICROADS vehicle register online...

I take a few photos of your car... and list it on carsales... ebay... wherever... (using a hotmail address and an internet cafe)...

I also have a prepaid phone which was purchased over the counter and registered in a dodgy name (prepaid phones can be bought and registered by anyone) to take all the enquiries on...

I can list with rego, photos, VIN, and my selling story, and take lots of enquiries on this car as it is listed CHEAP (almost too good to be true)... before YOU even know your car is for sale... I'd even list the VIN, Eng, and Rego... and suggest the buyer to do a REVS and Security check... they will all come up clear (as you don't even know the car is listed remember)...

The bit that I'm a little confused on - is how the money exchanges hands...
though most of the time - the scammers that do this are only after the deposit money... and as far as i know its not illegal to deposit money into people's bank accounts...

Unfortunately it works... very well... because buyers are happy to pay the deposit of $1000 - $2000 without even seeing the car (as a holding deposit)... and thats a pretty good little earner seeing it costs about $60 to list the ad on carsales... and you'll never even know your car is for sale...

I've seen it done plenty of times, and a lot of the time the adverts are cancelled if they're 'busted' but a lot of the time they aren't discovered until its too late...

Again... inspection of the vehicle doesn't cost much... not compared to burning your deposit, or the full amount of the car...

Buyer Beware indeed...

4Vman · 28-09-2010, 04:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by loftie

It can be done very easily 4Vman...

Say I drive past your car on the side of the road... (particularly if you are in VIC) I can get the Vin, engine, rego without even stopping the car... jjust through VICROADS vehicle register online...

I take a few photos of your car... and list it on carsales... ebay... wherever... (using a hotmail address and an internet cafe)...

I also have a prepaid phone which was purchased over the counter and registered in a dodgy name (prepaid phones can be bought and registered by anyone) to take all the enquiries on...

I can list with rego, photos, VIN, and my selling story, and take lots of enquiries on this car as it is listed CHEAP (almost too good to be true)... before YOU even know your car is for sale... I'd even list the VIN, Eng, and Rego... and suggest the buyer to do a REVS and Security check... they will all come up clear (as you don't even know the car is listed remember)...

The bit that I'm a little confused on - is how the money exchanges hands...
though most of the time - the scammers that do this are only after the deposit money... and as far as i know its not illegal to deposit money into people's bank accounts...

Unfortunately it works... very well... because buyers are happy to pay the deposit of $1000 - $2000 without even seeing the car (as a holding deposit)... and thats a pretty good little earner seeing it costs about $60 to list the ad on carsales... and you'll never even know your car is for sale...

I've seen it done plenty of times, and a lot of the time the adverts are cancelled if they're 'busted' but a lot of the time they aren't discovered until its too late...

Again... inspection of the vehicle doesn't cost much... not compared to burning your deposit, or the full amount of the car...

Buyer Beware indeed...

Well there might be some dumb gullible people out there but that scenario is highly risky and relies on an enourmous amount of things to work in your favour... I just can't see it working..

Nobody i know would buy a car without visiting the owners home and getting proper license and identification details from the seller, with written receipt etc.... A roadworthy will further delay the process too...

If someone wasnt prepared to let me visit their home to view the car or not produce ID i wouldn't bother looking at the car, it would smell far too fishy....

302 XC · 28-09-2010, 04:54 PM

Wow and now we all no why threads get closed

Bit like people posting their custom plates,
then others see them dob em in for illegal activities

I think if we all sit down and scratch ideas how simple things mite/mite not be
I wouldnt be posting it up to help drigger peoples imagination

BENT_8 · 28-09-2010, 05:06 PM

Unfortunately Norm, there are many 'need to have now' people living amongst us who will lay down a few cold hard on a whim just so the next guy doesnt take advantage of the 'bargain'.

The advantages of digital media and internet hey...

RedHotGT · 28-09-2010, 05:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 4Vman

Well there might be some dumb gullible people out there but that scenario is highly risky and relies on an enourmous amount of things to work in your favour... I just can't see it working..

Nobody i know would buy a car without visiting the owners home and getting proper license and identification details from the seller, with written receipt etc.... A roadworthy will further delay the process too...

If someone wasnt prepared to let me visit their home to view the car or not produce ID i wouldn't bother looking at the car, it would smell far too fishy....

I agree with you 100% completely... but there are people that do it...

I just sold my car to someone - sight unseen - paid in full before I even took the car to the transport depot to send it to him in Adelaide...

He was very trusting in me... and I did not break his trust...
But there are plenty of others who may have...

loosey · 28-09-2010, 09:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 4Vman

If someone wasnt prepared to let me visit their home to view the car or not produce ID i wouldn't bother looking at the car, it would smell far too fishy....

I'm currently selling a car and wont give people my address straight up, they can meet me at a carpark if they want to see the vehicle. By giving them my address/ letting them see my house they will know how it's garaged, my home security, all the goodies my car has and have an idea what sort of alarm I have on it.
Far too many imports are getting a stolen in adelaide at the moment, the least I can do is make it harder for them.

Zedjay · 29-09-2010, 12:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bfiipursuit

It also tells you if the vehicle is stolen...

hang on.... wouldn't that mean only the body is stolen and the chassis and engine belong to the dude who bought it??

the insurance company for the SR5 only owns the body, so what happens

XYLINC · 29-09-2010, 09:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by motionless_xe

I'm currently selling a car and wont give people my address straight up, they can meet me at a carpark if they want to see the vehicle. By giving them my address/ letting them see my house they will know how it's garaged, my home security, all the goodies my car has and have an idea what sort of alarm I have on it.
Far too many imports are getting a stolen in adelaide at the moment, the least I can do is make it harder for them.

I agree, when living in Melbourne some years ago I advertised a dirt bike for sale. Got a call from a keen buyer, sounded genuine, gave him my address to inspect the bike and made an appointment that night. He didnt turn up that night and the following night it was stolen. I have no doubts it was the same guy. I dont have the same concerns living where I do but if I was living back in a capital city or close to one I would not hand out my address so easily. Having had 4 cars and a dirt bike stolen over the years I really dont want to go through all that pain again.

global88 · 29-09-2010, 09:30 AM

There is a nice thread on car scammers in another forum i hang out at, there is a guy thats been found to take heaps of people for a ride, nearer to the last pages people are posting that they have been sucked in by the same scammer.

He offers a car cheap in another state and offers to transport it up for you after you have paid a deposit, the price is too good to refuse.....

http://www.austech.info/general-chat...ego-owner.html