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Old 01-06-2009, 02:15 PM   #1
XR6_661
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Default Scary driving moments

What moments when driving your vehicle have you had that gut wrenching feeling and scared the living poop out of you.

This weekend was driving down to Townsville, rounded a blind corner only to find a 180sx pegging it in the opposite direction overtaking a long line of cars, mad the split second to decision to slam on the chocks and steer onto the grass verge, I was probaby just over the white line on the shoulder and the 180sx flew by in my lane.

Hit the grass and managed to stop just infront of a big box culvert. Kinda just sat there in the car holding the wheel for a little bit and not saying much. The missus was pretty freaked out as well.

I've been driving for 3 years and have never been that freaked out behind the wheel before. I was travelling at 100 and the 180 was definatly over 120.

It just goes to show that a split second decsion can save lifes and you should always be on the ball when driving.

Anyways...guess the topic of this thread is to post up any scary driving moments you have had and how it's effected the way you drive, etc

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Old 01-06-2009, 02:47 PM   #2
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I had a blowout in my 1.3L Escort while being overtaken by a truck. The natural reaction would have been to hit the anchors which could have been disaster. The car did pull to the right at the same time but managed to straighten it and limp into to the breakdown lane. Probably took 3 times as long to change the tyre that morning.

Over the years I've had many near misses and I guess a combination of expecting the unexpected, experience and apathy at least allowed me to deal with similar situations, mumble moron under your breath and continue on as if nothing happened.

As stated, driving does need the majority of your attention because you never know when something unexpected gets dumped right into your path.
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Old 01-06-2009, 07:28 PM   #3
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I had an experience that should have given me a broken neck (I reckon)
It was one of those absolute split second moments with millimetres to spare.
Longish story, but had to be told.

I was travelling along a back road in Melb's Outer East, about 5 cars up from me, was a slow driver who had no idea where he/she was going.
A queue formed with 5 cars behind the slowy, then I joined the queue.
I went down to 55kph's from 90kph. Limit was 90.
We all rounded a longish right hand bend, when the slowy car decided to go "Oh, that's where I want to go, I missed my turnoff", decides to pull over to the left hand side of the road on to loose gravel, but decides to heavily brake as well without warning. The person realised it was gravel and chucked on the anchors.
So 4-5 cars proceed to all heavily brake out of nowhere. I had a bigger than normal gap than I usually do, so I braked normally, but then realised they were stopping very quickly and then I braked heavy, but not to the point of screeching tyres.

Anyway, all not lost, thought everything was OK, until I seen in my rear vision mirror.
A large 4WD towing a largish trailer, laden with a boat.
Thought ok, he's going to slow down, well he didn't.
Traffic infront of me, is still slowing down as the slowy proceeds to do a U-Turn infront of us, with no indicators. Go Figure. Idjit.

The 4WD in the back of me, is not stopping, and decides all of a sudden "Ok, we stop now" and heavily brakes with tyre smoke belching at the tyres.
He's about 10 metres behind me, with brakes locked.
At this point, I'd thought, OK, I'm in trouble (poop time). I had nowhere to go but straight ahead.

Traffic in front of me now picked up speed as the slowy did their illegal U-turn over double lines, at this point the 4WD Bullbar was about 1 metre away from my car, I could read the sticker where he bought the Bullbar from.
(he was that close).
At that precise time, the gap in front of me increased, I gunned it flat to the boards and hanging on for dear life.
Well, I reckon there was a cigarette paper thickness between my car and the 4WD's bullbar at the closest point.
My car picked up speed and averted a disaster.

However, I think the 4WD driver poo'ed their pants as they pulled over and got out of the vehicle for a breather (I think it was "shaking their legs").

If I didn't do what I did, I would have been punted to the other side of the road into a dam probably with a broken neck.
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Old 01-06-2009, 08:11 PM   #4
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I've had a few but the most memorable was actually while sitting still at a set of lights.
Was a really wet day, we were heading to my sisters for lunch and were running late. Pulled up in the left lane of an intersection with two right turn lanes, a woman in a small hatchback pulls up to my right, we both waiting to turn right onto main north rd.
Light goes green which i see, she takes off but for some reason i just sat there staring at the light. Next thing i know a semi with 40ft flat bed slides sideways through the intersection in front of me just missing her rear bumper.

I shat myself, as did the missus. Not sure if the other woman knows how lucky she was but i doubt she won the xlotto that week.
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Old 01-06-2009, 08:14 PM   #5
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Driving to the All Ford Day on sunday, from Canberra to Sydney...

Cruising along with 3 other cars from the club, we all started overtaking a truck, so i put my foot down to get past.... Zip, rear end Flicked out, drifting sideways up the freeway at 125km/h... My mate next to me had his hands in the air "F&$k Yeah!" he's going lol, not the same reaction i had.... :P Scared the poop out of me!
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Old 01-06-2009, 08:21 PM   #6
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black spur in the sprinter, didn't relaise how quick i was going and in an effort to scrub off some speed, changed to 2nd and compression lock up, *** comes out and i'm sliding towards a big gum tree followed by a big drop. ended up accelerating again and it came back... twas quite scary though
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Old 01-06-2009, 09:05 PM   #7
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Over 30 years of driving & only had 2 truely "legs turn to jelly" moments - both my own doing & with only me in the car.
1) Driving reasonably quickly at night on an unfamiliar country road. Must have missed a sign giving warning of a tight left hand bend coming up. Came into the corner pretty hot & braked/cornered at 10/10ths - then realized I was almost right on top of a car coming the opposite way & needed to turn in tighter to avoid causing a head on.......
I ended up balanced on two wheels & stayed on my side of the road. I clearly recall the shocked looks on the other driver & his passenger. I pulled up a couple of hundred metres further down the road, waited for my legs to stop shaking & thanked my lucky stars that, only the weekend before, I had installed swaybars, sports shocks & new,sticky Yokahama tyres to my car.

2) Driving down the Princes Hgwy in the pouring rain - behind a big semi. Decided the time had come to overtake & pulled out and increased speed. Got about half way alongside & hit a low lying bit of road and started to aquaplane - not much at first, but gradually getting worse & causing the car to glide in towards the truck, which is getting closer & closer ......
Eased off the accelerator, a few right dabs on the steering wheel (trying for some grip) & finally got control. Was probably over in about 5 seconds - but felt like a lifetime.
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Old 01-06-2009, 10:00 PM   #8
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Had an aquaplane experience the same weekend as my previous post...except driving back. It definatly made my gut drop.

Was doing a good 10kph under the limit, and rounded a bend, hit a low spot and the car pointed straight into the path of an oncoming truck. I just gripped the wheel and eased off the pedal. The car shimmied around for a while, was definatly like nothing I've felt before...Had literally no control.
And as you said, lasted a whole of 2-3 seconds probably, but it felt like a lifetime.
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I couldn't give a crap how many are in their family, what gay passtimes they paticipate in, or whether they have a cat, dog or a freaken fish.

Keep your stinking family to yourself god damn it.
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Old 02-06-2009, 09:33 AM   #9
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My scariest driving moments actually have been when I have been positioned in the passenger's seat. See the old man has this habit of driving through stop signs ( he simply doesn't see them, or even slow down) so as the story continues, a truck (b-double) was heading to this intersection ( he had the right of way) and the old man went straight through the stop sign ( not traffic light) without seeing the sign, and the truck. The collision was avoided just be millimeters! If I had yanked on the handbrake, I'm sure we would have turned out to be the new emblem on the top of the kenworth's grill!
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Old 02-06-2009, 09:56 AM   #10
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When you are so used to being the driver, then being the passenger makes it 1000 times worse when it turns to custard.

Had been trying for a few days to explain to the then Missus about driving in the rain (she had a gold lic), when you lock up the fronts trying to stop dont pannick, just release the pedal and have another go, EASY !

Well, at the lights just outside the Coffs Harbour Court House on the Pacific Hwy in the rain where it dog legs to the right she finally got it right, pulled up so close that we couldnt even read the number plate of the COP car !!!

Imagine trying to explain that one!

She got out, I drove after that.
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Old 02-06-2009, 10:03 AM   #11
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Had a couple I can remember my first was driving on a loose dirt road in the XY with a bunch of mates very early in my driving life, not doing anything purposly stupid but just driving a littlequick for my level of experience at the time. The car just started fish tailing at about 80-90kph, had no control just along for the ride almost took out a concrete stump, thankfully all eneded well. To this day after 14yrs of driving 3 driving courses and 100,000's of klms I still crap my pants when driving on dirt roads. My next experience was a double wammy! Driving back from a car show in Melbourne only a couple of years ago in the mustang, There is a very windy bit of road on the Melbourne side of Castlemaine in central Vic with a 40kph recommended speed, needless to say in a car that handles it's a good bit of road, this particular day there was some bad windstorms and as I rounded a blind corner at 100kph there is a huge tree lying over the road, about 100m down the road. Pulled the Mustang up no probs but was a little shaken never the less. Anyway as we decided how to move the tree with other drivers we hear another car coming from the direction from were I came and sure enough an old couple towing a caravan, He's seen the situation hit the brakes and the car and van start to slide in the direction of the roads camber, right were the Mustang is parked Thankfully my partner had gotten out of the car with me beacause it looked as if the mustang was going to go through the barriers and off the edge ( did I mention theres a 80m drop onto railway lines on the side of the road). As my heart was up in my throat the driver slowed down enough to regain control only meters away from my car. Thats probably the closest to catrastophy I have come.
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Old 02-06-2009, 10:17 AM   #12
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a while back i was in the passenger seat of a mates car late one night, was a lil damp and he decided to put a lil stick in it coming around a corner - we werent going fast but it was enough to lose control.. Almost ended up through the front doors of the local RTA!!!
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Old 02-06-2009, 10:26 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SNBXR
Driving to the All Ford Day on sunday, from Canberra to Sydney...

Cruising along with 3 other cars from the club, we all started overtaking a truck, so i put my foot down to get past.... Zip, rear end Flicked out, drifting sideways up the freeway at 125km/h... My mate next to me had his hands in the air "F&$k Yeah!" he's going lol, not the same reaction i had.... :P Scared the poop out of me!

was it raining?
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Old 02-06-2009, 10:36 AM   #14
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While still in Poland, early morning, fresh snow on the roads (the gritters haven't gotten to that particular street yet) I was driving to uni very slowly as it was extremely slippery.
I was approaching a small intersection with traffic lights and they turned red so I started to slow down using the gears and applying some brakes (did want to slide into the intersection)
that moment the kid that was waiting at the lights to cross the road walked out right in front of me (he never checked if the cars actually stopped) I pumped my brake and screamed from inside the car to warn the kid that I might not be able to stop in time...
the kid saw me in the last second and jumped out of the way and I managed to stop with the front of my car on the intersection.

Now I always make sure that I check if the cars are actually stopped before I put my foot on the ped crossing
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Old 02-06-2009, 10:39 AM   #15
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i have heaps, but ill share just 2:

the worst was when i was in a nissan gazelle barreling down maroondah hwy in ringwood. an idiot driving an ambulance pulled out without looking at the high flowing traffic. he was 100% in the wrong.

the car in front of me (a BA stationwagon) slammed on its brakes real hard, i slammed on mine and had smoke rolling off my tyres. the BA just pulled up before slamming into the ambulance. i just pulled up a bees d!ck from the BA. i was shaking. i was poking cloth.

I thought all was fine and started thanking my lucky stars. a second later a was hit so hard in the back i thought i was going to get crushed inside my car. i was pushed into the car infront. a B-Double truck ploughed into the back of me with little/no attempt to slow down.

my drivers seat broke, leaving me lying on my back. saved me from hurting my neck real bad. i ended up having a big sheet of glass from my hatch on my head.


No 2: i was giving my XT a good flogging just after i installed my 351. i was only sitting on 80, but was accelerating hard. some idiot pulled out in front of me. as XT's have poor brakes, and mine has even poorer tyres, my wheels locked up, and continued to skid, whilst my car was barely slowing down. too much momentum. somehow, as i was skidding closer to the ar in front, it kept accelerating. the asian woman never even saw me by the look on her face. it was like she was oblivious to what was happening.

i kept skidding until eventually her car started pulling away from me....i was really shaking this time. lost the power in my arms to steer properly!!
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Old 02-06-2009, 11:36 AM   #16
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I've had a couple of scary ones, mostly my fault, but the problems were compounded by other peoples actions.
First was on a country road, wanted to overtake a slow tourist driving a territory at 60 on an 80 road but i was too keen and pulled out to overtake too early after a crest, there was an oncoming car hidden from sight in a dip in the road. No problems i thought when i saw him, i was only half way into the right hand lane so i thought i'd just merge back into the left lane. Now this is where my deep seating loathing of territory drivers comes from; the terry decides he has noticed danger in my indicated overtaking intention and slams on his brakes as i'm trying to merge back behind him. So i'm left all four wheels locked up in the middle of the road, about to rear end the terry and head on with the other car, the car drifting sideways.
Fortunately the oncoming car reacted well and slowed and pulled onto the verge, the terry somehow managed to avoid being hit.
I freaked out and pulled over until i calmed down a bit, loser just keeps putting along at 60! i caught up with him a few minutes, he just keeps driving as if he didnt almost see a massive crash, then pulls over only to have a look at his map and work out where he was going. I was tempted to give him the finger.
Also had the obligatory aquaplaning experience, luckily there was no one around me on the dual carriageway so i just got a bit shaken up.
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Old 02-06-2009, 11:41 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by XR6_661
What moments when driving your vehicle have you had that gut wrenching feeling and scared the living poop out of you.

This weekend was driving down to Townsville, rounded a blind corner only to find a 180sx pegging it in the opposite direction overtaking a long line of cars, mad the split second to decision to slam on the chocks and steer onto the grass verge, I was probaby just over the white line on the shoulder and the 180sx flew by in my lane.

Hit the grass and managed to stop just infront of a big box culvert. Kinda just sat there in the car holding the wheel for a little bit and not saying much. The missus was pretty freaked out as well.

I've been driving for 3 years and have never been that freaked out behind the wheel before. I was travelling at 100 and the 180 was definatly over 120.

It just goes to show that a split second decsion can save lifes and you should always be on the ball when driving.

Anyways...guess the topic of this thread is to post up any scary driving moments you have had and how it's effected the way you drive, etc
Same thing for me only I was actually on the other side, I was doing the overtaking and couldn't make it before the oncoming car reached me. I was the one that took avasive action and took to the dirt verge on the wrong side of the road; like the guy overtaking in front of you should have instead of you IMO. It was definitely his (and in my case mine) mistake to correct.

I was only in a 70 zone though overtaking someone doing about 50. Problem was I was travelling uphill in an automatic EA lol. I'm very cautious overtaking nowadays, even though I now drive a 300hp V8.
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Old 02-06-2009, 12:01 PM   #18
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[QUOTE=Powdered Toast Man]like the guy overtaking in front of you should have instead of you IMO. It was definitely his (and in my case mine) mistake to correct.
QUOTE]

I'm glad he didn't do that cause we would have collided off the road.

I was taught in a defensive driving course to always always go right and off the road in that situation and act first, even if it means hitting a tree or something. Hitting a tree at 70 is a lot better then hitting a car head on because you were hoping he would pull off.

Mind you, I didn't really think about what I did, instinct kicked in and I slammed on the chocks and went with the safest option.

I guess in that situation there are so many variables to what could happen. Just glad nothing happened.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tex
I couldn't give a crap how many are in their family, what gay passtimes they paticipate in, or whether they have a cat, dog or a freaken fish.

Keep your stinking family to yourself god damn it.
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Old 02-06-2009, 12:35 PM   #19
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guess I've had a few heart stoppers in my time but the one that springs to mind is one where I was a passenger; it's always worse when you have no control over the situation; Out bushbashing with a bloke when I was a young fella, maybe 15, in a LC torana flogging along a dirt/sand road follwoing a estuarine creek bordering a salt flat. We came to a hard right with an open area, like a run off sand trap, where creek hooked back on itself to join the road. The tide had soaked the sand the night before making it loose and sloppy. The driver hooked into the corner throwing the old torrie sideways into the "sand trap" where it proceeded to slide merrily towards the drop off and into the creek 5' below without washing off too much speed thanks to the clay base under the sloppy wet surface. I was beginning to panic as I saw the drop off coming at me. Thankfully the 3 inches of surface sand was enough to slow the car up enough to drive away about 3' from the edge but by that time I'd already turned white and was reaching for my seatbelt buckle ready to escape when the car fell into the water passenger side first.


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Old 02-06-2009, 01:47 PM   #20
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I was on my p's and a guy I knew bought a RX4 Mazda.(in 1981).He had his L's so I was driving. He picked me up and I drove it.It seemed to be a bit skaty than normal..did not think much of it..picked up a couple of more mates and went around a corner which was a bit bumpy and the camber all wrong...the thing kicked sideways,I corrected ,spat me the other way,then off the road.The car collected a stump,and drove the front wheels through the firewall...ripped the whole steering rack out....
It was hard to explain to the Officer that we were only doing 70k's...which we were..
I learnt a week later that it had airshocks on it ( wonderful things) and he had pumped them up to 90lbs to give it a bit of a tough stance !!! This effectively gave it no rear suspension and the thing bounced me over the road....definitely shocked( no pun intended) me at the time,and really put the wind up me for a while....Car was a write off ...
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Old 02-06-2009, 02:41 PM   #21
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[QUOTE=XR6_661]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Powdered Toast Man
like the guy overtaking in front of you should have instead of you IMO. It was definitely his (and in my case mine) mistake to correct.
QUOTE]

I'm glad he didn't do that cause we would have collided off the road.

I was taught in a defensive driving course to always always go right and off the road in that situation and act first, even if it means hitting a tree or something. Hitting a tree at 70 is a lot better then hitting a car head on because you were hoping he would pull off.

Mind you, I didn't really think about what I did, instinct kicked in and I slammed on the chocks and went with the safest option.

I guess in that situation there are so many variables to what could happen. Just glad nothing happened.
No doubting you did the right thing. I just meant he should have taken avasive action since it was his fault, not that he actually would

I often wonder what the people in the oncoming car were thinking when I was coming straight at them. They never deviated from their course so who knows. And oddly enough I just mearly kept going, didn't even stop and catch my breath. Just drove down the dirt shoulder and back onto the road. For some reason I just kept my cool and went on like nothing happened : . I would have thought I would have had the same reaction as you.
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Old 02-06-2009, 02:50 PM   #22
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My guess is the person who doesn't in those situations is the same kind of person who won't step around people in crowded places but pushes through expecting others to move for them...
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Originally Posted by Tex
I couldn't give a crap how many are in their family, what gay passtimes they paticipate in, or whether they have a cat, dog or a freaken fish.

Keep your stinking family to yourself god damn it.
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Old 02-06-2009, 03:59 PM   #23
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When I had my restricted license for about 5 weeks and had just bought my first car, a 1987 Hyundai Stellar, with a whopping ~55rwhp (mini factoid: the Stellar used the same chassis as the Cortina) I was following behind a slow driver coming down a hill and I carefully looked past him to the corner at the bottom and the long straight and saw it was clear.

I pulled out, side by side with the car and saw an oncoming car I'd somehow missed, even though I had checked carefully.
By this point I was going faster than the car I was overtaking and halfway around a corner, but too slow to actually pass, so I slammed the brakes on.

The car started fish tailing, I somehow got behind the car I was passing, continued fishing tailing getting worse and worse and finally spun onto the other side of the, now clear, road. Facing the way I had come.

I was very lucky. I still don't know how I managed to get behind the car when I was fish tailing and had no skill at driving by that point.
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Old 02-06-2009, 05:53 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SVTVNM
Had a couple I can remember my first was driving on a loose dirt road in the XY with a bunch of mates very early in my driving life, not doing anything purposly stupid but just driving a littlequick for my level of experience at the time. The car just started fish tailing at about 80-90kph, had no control just along for the ride almost took out a concrete stump, thankfully all eneded well. To this day after 14yrs of driving 3 driving courses and 100,000's of klms I still crap my pants when driving on dirt roads. My next experience was a double wammy! Driving back from a car show in Melbourne only a couple of years ago in the mustang, There is a very windy bit of road on the Melbourne side of Castlemaine in central Vic with a 40kph recommended speed, needless to say in a car that handles it's a good bit of road, this particular day there was some bad windstorms and as I rounded a blind corner at 100kph there is a huge tree lying over the road, about 100m down the road. Pulled the Mustang up no probs but was a little shaken never the less. Anyway as we decided how to move the tree with other drivers we hear another car coming from the direction from were I came and sure enough an old couple towing a caravan, He's seen the situation hit the brakes and the car and van start to slide in the direction of the roads camber, right were the Mustang is parked Thankfully my partner had gotten out of the car with me beacause it looked as if the mustang was going to go through the barriers and off the edge ( did I mention theres a 80m drop onto railway lines on the side of the road). As my heart was up in my throat the driver slowed down enough to regain control only meters away from my car. Thats probably the closest to catrastophy I have come.

Ah good old Tunnel hill many people have had scary moments on that piece of road
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Old 02-06-2009, 06:09 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by cant
When you are so used to being the driver, then being the passenger makes it 1000 times worse when it turns to custard.

Had been trying for a few days to explain to the then Missus about driving in the rain (she had a gold lic), when you lock up the fronts trying to stop dont pannick, just release the pedal and have another go, EASY !

Well, at the lights just outside the Coffs Harbour Court House on the Pacific Hwy in the rain where it dog legs to the right she finally got it right, pulled up so close that we couldnt even read the number plate of the COP car !!!

Imagine trying to explain that one!

She got out, I drove after that.
Bwahahahaha i love it!

Had a couple of incidents only recently, the worst one when the throttle return spring on the carby broke - at wide open throttle when i was doing 120 coming off the freeway facing a corner and a roundabout. brakes were doing nothing, that engine was screaming its guts off. i made it around corner and through roundabout, i don't know how, then just shut it down on a straight stretch of road. and sat there and sweated and shook for a while.

i still get the shakes thinking of that one ....
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Old 02-06-2009, 06:17 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fev
a while back i was in the passenger seat of a mates car late one night, was a lil damp and he decided to put a lil stick in it coming around a corner - we werent going fast but it was enough to lose control.. Almost ended up through the front doors of the local RTA!!!
He drives a commodore, doesn't he? They (Commodore drivers) all do that in the wet.
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Old 02-06-2009, 06:19 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SNBXR
Driving to the All Ford Day on sunday, from Canberra to Sydney...

Cruising along with 3 other cars from the club, we all started overtaking a truck, so i put my foot down to get past.... Zip, rear end Flicked out, drifting sideways up the freeway at 125km/h... My mate next to me had his hands in the air "F&$k Yeah!" he's going lol, not the same reaction i had.... Scared the poop out of me!
Quote:
Originally Posted by gozza
was it raining?
I'm guessing black ice on the road - near Pheasant's nest, was it? I've had the exact same thing happen to me, going to the same event (different location) about 3 or 4 years ago.
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Old 02-06-2009, 06:27 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iCat
Bwahahahaha i love it!

Had a couple of incidents only recently, the worst one when the throttle return spring on the carby broke - at wide open throttle when i was doing 120 coming off the freeway facing a corner and a roundabout. brakes were doing nothing, that engine was screaming its guts off. i made it around corner and through roundabout, i don't know how, then just shut it down on a straight stretch of road. and sat there and sweated and shook for a while.

i still get the shakes thinking of that one ....
I had a similar experience at Wakefiueld. Coming down the back straight doing 130, overtake a Red EB XR6, and get ready to slow down for the hairpin corner (ideal entry speed of around 70, but usually around 60), the throttle jammed wide open at 130 and brakes were doing nothing. I reefed on the handbrake and threw the auto in Neutral, went sideways through the sand trap and ended up a car width from the ratining wall. Bloody close!
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Old 02-06-2009, 08:26 PM   #29
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For me it was as a passenger in a HQ 4 door SS heading up to the River land from Adelaide in 1985.

My Freind Andy was pretty chuffed about the 350 Chev under the bonnet that he had helped to build, and we was fairly motoring on a sweeping left hand bend when we where confronted by a Semi using all of our side of the road to cope with this sweeping bend.

Looking back, I know we are lucky to be alive, mayby it was just luck, combined with his driving skill, but we found the only gap in the trees, and left a huge dust cloud in a field that had been plowed and dreid out.

It was touch and go for a second as we hit the field, but he managed to straighten her up.....

When we came to a stop, we just sort of looked at each other with wide eyes, breathed a sigh of relieve, and got the bong out of the boot.

The only damage was to the wheel allignment and the scarring on the paint work left by the farmers fence as we tore through it into the field.

Yes I would put that one down as my closest call....

Cheers
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Old 02-06-2009, 08:33 PM   #30
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these are horrendous stories to read - the things that can happen, should be compulsory bedtime reading for L platers ......
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