GM still not out of the poo

[EgoFG]

Every 3 months public companies in the USA submit financial details to the regulators - the 10-Q

This includes a balance sheet (which I can understand) and a profit and loss (which I could not make comparative sense of)

Because of different levels of summarisation in the 10-Qs I looked at, this is the best level of detail I can show

the news (bearing in mind that I may be misunderstanding the 10-Q)

GM Assets 136,046,000,000
GM Liabilities (-) 191,640,000,000
GM net -55,594,000,000

Ford Assets 200,190,000,000
Ford Liabilities (-) 209,608,000,000
Ford net - 9,418,000,000

So, GM is almost 6 times worse off than Ford

An improvement on 9 months ago ... but we should expect no less, they got rid of the worst parts

Especially seeing that Ford seem to have made a profit of about 2,261,000,000, and GM a loss or about 19,537,000,000 ...

I (IMHO) conclude that GM is not out of the poo, neither is Ford - but Ford remains in a significantly better position.

[burnz]

both companys need to get rid of those (union) retirement packages.

[SSD-85]

Agreed, it must be killing them.

[cs123]

Originally Posted by burnz

both companys need to get rid of those (union) retirement packages.

You don't think retired workers deserve a pension?

[mustang70]

Originally Posted by cs123

You don't think retired workers deserve a pension?

well said, if only they'd would work for free too then there'd be much more profits

[burnz]

Originally Posted by cs123

You don't think retired workers deserve a pension?

not only do they have compolsery like here, but extra paid in??
can't they pay the extra them self!! "i do".
free dental, medical for the rest of their live's....

[Ghiadude]

If thats what they signed when they started then thats what they should get.

[irlewy86]

Originally Posted by burnz

not only do they have compolsery like here, but extra paid in??
can't they pay the extra them self!! "i do".
free dental, medical for the rest of their live's....

FAIL :

[burnz]

Originally Posted by irlewy86

FAIL :

no you fail
http://www.gmret.org/
http://www.detnews.com/article/20090...ns+are+at+risk

[Thankfull]

Ford is actualy still a family owned company guys....it is good to see them in a reasonable position financialy.

Sombody has been keeping an eye things....you can be sure of that.

William Clay Ford Junior... I think it is, he can veto any direction the board of directors wants to go, if he thinks that it would affect the future sustainability of the Company.

GM perhaps did not have that added safe guard ?

[anto]

Originally Posted by burnz

both companys need to get rid of those (union) retirement packages.

fat chance with "dear leader" obama pulling the strings... take a look at what he did with tarrifs on imported chinese tyres,.. = pro union.

GM ( government Motors ) is doomed ...no 2 ways about it.

[burnz]

well they have widdled it back a bit (GM)

ford is doing the same..http://healthinsurance.about.com/b/2...h-benefits.htm

[Wally]

Originally Posted by EgoFG

Every 3 months public companies in the USA submit financial details to the regulators - the 10-Q

This includes a balance sheet (which I can understand) and a profit and loss (which I could not make comparative sense of)

Because of different levels of summarisation in the 10-Qs I looked at, this is the best level of detail I can show

the news (bearing in mind that I may be misunderstanding the 10-Q)

GM Assets 136,046,000,000
GM Liabilities (-) 191,640,000,000
GM net -55,594,000,000

Ford Assets 200,190,000,000
Ford Liabilities (-) 209,608,000,000
Ford net - 9,418,000,000

So, GM is almost 6 times worse off than Ford

An improvement on 9 months ago ... but we should expect no less, they got rid of the worst parts

Especially seeing that Ford seem to have made a profit of about 2,261,000,000, and GM a loss or about 19,537,000,000 ...

I (IMHO) conclude that GM is not out of the poo, neither is Ford - but Ford remains in a significantly better position.

I think you will find the GM figures are GM Old.

The Ford liabilities dropped mainly because Ford credit bought $3.4b debt for $1.1b, resulting in a net $2.2bn debt reduction and $1.1b increase in cash flow. So things aren't always what they appear.

[snappy]

Originally Posted by Wally

I think you will find the GM figures are GM Old.

The Ford liabilities dropped mainly because Ford credit bought $3.4b debt for $1.1b, resulting in a net $2.2bn debt reduction and $1.1b increase in cash flow. So things aren't always what they appear.

Yeah there better , there somone with a brain behind the wheels if he can pull off deals like that.

No need to be jealous wally . Gm is in safe hands now tax payer money never runs out gm can run at a loss forever

[Wally]

......................

[Falc'man]

Originally Posted by snappy84

Yeah there better , there somone with a brain behind the wheels if he can pull off deals like that.

No need to be jealous wally . Gm is in safe hands now tax payer money never runs out gm can run at a loss forever

The essential difference between the two; one had foresight, the other had taxpayer's money in sight.

One decided to spend big in the toughest of times and kept spending on new innovative products, and since the GFC have unveiled some great new models, with plenty more to come.
The other, decided to cut spending, pretending to try to avoid any bankruptcy.
Then one moment they'll release the Volt, the next, it's canceled. One moment they'll re-introduce a VE, the next moment they'll cancel it. They don't look like they've progressed from their medieval state which put them in this situation.

[Wally]

Having to repay US$35b in debt and obligations within 5 years is not somewhere any company wants to be, especially when they will be bleeding until at least 2011. It's going to be a really hard ask for Ford, but the way I see it is that if GM come out of bankruptcy protection as a real going concern there must be an underlying profit, which should also mean Ford will be profitable:- while GM are being scrutinised by the Govt, they are less likely to drag the market down with loss leaders.

[EgoFG]

Originally Posted by Wally

I think you will find the GM figures are GM Old.

I am Afraid that they were not - as GM OLD is now called something like 'liquidation motors' and the 10-Q definitely said General Motors.

[ltd]

Originally Posted by Wally

Having to repay US$35b in debt and obligations within 5 years is not somewhere any company wants to be, especially when they will be bleeding until at least 2011. It's going to be a really hard ask for Ford, but the way I see it is that if GM come out of bankruptcy protection as a real going concern there must be an underlying profit, which should also mean Ford will be profitable:- while GM are being scrutinised by the Govt, they are less likely to drag the market down with loss leaders.

GM will also have preference over ford for government fleets, as it is in the governments best interest for GM to make a profit. Same can be said for Holden here and to a lesser extent, toyota.

[Wally]

Originally Posted by EgoFGI

am Afraid that they were not - as GM OLD is now called something like 'liquidation motors' and the 10-Q definitely said General Motors

.

Well that would be extremely odd, seeing as GM is in chapter11. The declared carryover liabilities are nowhere near what is being implied. Gotta link?

Originally Posted by ltd

GM will also have preference over ford for government fleets, as it is in the governments best interest for GM to make a profit. Same can be said for Holden here and to a lesser extent, toyota.

Sometimes preferred supplier status can work against the favoured company. I'd be interested to see what the actual spread of sales versus brands is for the US Feds. Do you have any solid information?

Similarly I don't know how many Holden V Ford cars are leased by govts here, but I do know that most depts have a 4 cylinder preferred policy and I do know it's no coincidence the Falcon is getting a 4 pot.

[Wally]

GM "new" filings:

http://www.gm.com/corporate/investor_information/sec/

[Gobes32]

Originally Posted by Wally

.

I do know it's no coincidence the Falcon is getting a 4 pot.

Spot on....... Government sales keep the production line moving. Even if the eco-boost was a pig on fuel the government will still buy them because they are a 4cyl.

[EgoFG]

Originally Posted by Wally

GM "new" filings:

http://www.gm.com/corporate/investor_information/sec/

Humble apologies

I cannot re-locate the 10-Q filing I used, so perhaps I got the source incorrect - the figure do look the same as the ones from 12 months ago :-$ , at the moment I can only locate the first Q 2009 for GM.
Total assets 82,290,000,000
Total Liabilities 172,810,000,000
which puts it in the red by about 90,000,000,000
but of course it is not valid to compare that to Ford second Q 2009.

Here it is: (Interestingly not listed on the GM site)
http://www.gurufocus.com/StockLink.p...08&report=10-Q

and here is the Ford one
http://yahoo.brand.edgar-online.com/...0361-09-017928
Filed in August for the 2nd Q 2009

Again, sincere apologies.


I'll see if I can give this some more time tmw.

BTW: GM has exited Chapter 11, and is now two companies Motors Liquidation and General Motors

[EgoFG]

for Q1 2009 Ford was in this position

Assetts 203,134,000,000
Liabilities 219,611,000,000
in the red by about 16,000,000,000

http://www.gurufocus.com/StockLink.p...08&report=10-Q

[ltd]

Originally Posted by Wally

.

Well that would be extremely odd, seeing as GM is in chapter11. The declared carryover liabilities are nowhere near what is being implied. Gotta link?




Sometimes preferred supplier status can work against the favoured company. I'd be interested to see what the actual spread of sales versus brands is for the US Feds. Do you have any solid information?

Similarly I don't know how many Holden V Ford cars are leased by govts here, but I do know that most depts have a 4 cylinder preferred policy and I do know it's no coincidence the Falcon is getting a 4 pot.

Yeah mate, I've overflown holding yards of thousands of aqua lime green chevy pick ups; the same vehicles used for the Department of Interior (sort of like our NPWS) in the USA. Only a year ago it was a healthy mix between ford and gm, now it seems that most of the government department vehicles are all gm. This will be evidenced in the next twelve months as older vehicles get replaced.

Also mate, couldn't agree more about it potentially being a disadvantage, particularly when the vehicles you make have to come at a discount.

As for the 4 cyl preferred policy here, absolutely spot on again.
That's also coincidentally why the Holden Cruze made its Australian debut earlier amongst all the hype about it being made in Australia (eventually). Some people actually believe it's Australian made and supporting local jobs.

[phillyc]

Originally Posted by EgoFG

for Q1 2009 Ford was in this position

Assetts 203,134,000,000
Liabilities 219,611,000,000
in the red by about 16,000,000,000

http://www.gurufocus.com/StockLink.p...08&report=10-Q

Thanks for the links EgoFG!

Interestingly figures in there for Ford:
* Total cash and marketable securities increased by $5.893B
21,560M @ June 30 2009.
15,673M @ Dec 31 2008
* Total assets decreased by $18.619B
204,328M @ June 30 2009.
222,947M @ Dec 31 2008
* Total liabilities decreased by $23.728B
213,746M @ June 30 2009.
237,474M @ Dec 31 2008
* Total deficit decreased by $5.109B
9,418M @ June 30 2009
14,527M @ Dec 31 2008

Overall pretty good figures for Ford. Certainly showing some decent headway is being made. At that rate, by this time next year their deficit should be zero. Still, a long way to go though.

[Cabbage]

Originally Posted by cs123

You don't think retired workers deserve a pension?

Its not that they don't deserve a pension, its just that if a compromise is not found between Ford/GM/Chrysler and the workers there will potentially be no pensions because the companies won't exist. No business can continue to operate with something like 2-3 retired workers claiming pensions for every one worker. A few years ago a read an article in Time magazine saying that Ford and GM's retiree's pensions where adding approximately between $1000-1500 US to the to the cost of every car they built. Hard to be competitive against other countries which don't have such generous pension plans.

[cs123]

Originally Posted by Cabbage

Its not that they don't deserve a pension, its just that if a compromise is not found between Ford/GM/Chrysler and the workers there will potentially be no pensions because the companies won't exist. No business can continue to operate with something like 2-3 retired workers claiming pensions for every one worker. A few years ago a read an article in Time magazine saying that Ford and GM's retiree's pensions where adding approximately between $1000-1500 US to the to the cost of every car they built. Hard to be competitive against other countries which don't have such generous pension plans.

I'm on shaky ground here because I know little about how pension funds are structured in the US but I was of the belief that they are already fully funded so would not be having negative impact on the bottom line now.

[ltd]

Originally Posted by cs123

I'm on shaky ground here because I know little about how pension funds are structured in the US but I was of the belief that they are already fully funded so would not be having negative impact on the bottom line now.

No, they're part of their operating expenses and thus a constant liability. That's why Ford aimed for, and got concessions from the unions recently as part of their restructuring plan.

[cs123]

Originally Posted by ltd

No, they're part of their operating expenses and thus a constant liability. That's why Ford aimed for, and got concessions from the unions recently as part of their restructuring plan.

Well that's confusing because this guy says the opposite about pension plans
http://www.gregpalast.com/grand-thef...bankrupted-gm/

Although he does explain the concessions from the unions.

This link indicates that the Ford pension plan has 21B in assets with liabilities of 20B. http://www.knowyourpension.org/pensi...sion_plan.aspx

So, I really don't know how this works.

I'm just glad my super is locked up away from my employer.