Windsor 220 Reliability

[Jock260]

G'day fellas,

Asked a lot of questions in a lot of threads over the years but it's starting to get serious now. I'm 6 months away from my opens and a V8 is calling. Now, i'm very familar with LS1's and their potential and relibility, however i prefer Falcons in a lot of ways, their looks, sound and just the general feel i get from being in a Big V8 Falcon. But the Commodores with an LS1 are basically indestructable (Within the boundaries that i drive), and i don't want to have to buy a Commodore but i will if the Falcon can't handle a bit of punishment.

So, what are the weak points of an AUII/AUIII (220) driveline (Manual), or just problems in general that aren't especially common on other cars, such as an LS1. Can i get close to 200 RWKW with just bolt on's? Can they handle a flogging every now and again? (Nothing brutal, just a nice spririted drive around some good country roads near home, and maybe the odd clutch dump/burnout every now and again).

Cheers boys, No Holden bashing please, just good advice, which a lot of you have in spades. Just convince me to buy the Falcon.

Cheers, Jake.

[MGGT RAA]

Having an AU xr8 220 and a ba xr8, of which is all i can compare it to as ive never driven an LS, i can say i preffer to drive the 220 and its been a hell of alot more reliable.

Again i can only speak from my own experience, but i give mine a good thrash most days, then theres the drags and track days which i try to get to as much as possible. And still no major problems.

Get a couple upsized swaybars under it and they handle awesome, not expencive either...

Make the right choice. You know you want to.

[b2tf]

I'll give the same answer in this thread as I did to another similar one a while back - the windsor is a fairly bulletproof engine in it's last guise which was the AU 220. These engines are just like any other in that regular servicing and a good history are the key to a long life but they do take a lot more punishing than what a BOSS would. A much simpler engine design means less things can go wrong!

In terms of weaknesses I would say the main one would probably be valve springs as they were fairly close to their limits from new and over time they will deteriorate. Still it is a reasonably uncommon issue and should you end up doing any work on the engine like a cam etc you would upgrade them anyway. Kind of like how BOSS motors a common mod is the oil pump but nowhere near as expensive to do.

The only other weakness (if you call it one) is that the Windsor does take a lot more work and a lot more dollars to extract good numbers. AU's dont respond as well to tuning as the later B and F series do but you can still tune them quite well using the same gear like the Xcal3. The upside is that given it has been around for the best part of 40 years in one way or another there is a heap of aftermarket parts and support for the windsor and you have almost unlimited options on what you can do - heads, cams, intakes, forced induction etc, most of it has all been done before so you wont be a pioneer as such but you can learn from other people's experiences and mistakes.

Out of the box they are a fun engine to drive with a character you just don't get with a BOSS engine. They are cranky and have their times when they will really **** you off because simple things can take ages to fix, but it's all part of the fun of owning one.

[T3man]

20 years ago it was hard to extract power from the Windsor economically - there was little aftermarket support in Australia so the General's motors got a stronghold and good following.

Totally different nowadays. There's a squillion Mustang sites in the US that supply parts directly to us - strong Aussie dollar is your best friend this week!

And the Aussie performance shops are of course cashing in on Ford's stronger performance in the "available mods stakes".

You say the LS1 is indestrucable? Dunno where you get that idea honestly. The Windsor will be around longer and stronger pound for pound - however I will admit more HP can be gained from the LS1 at a lower cost. Whether it will deliver the kind of driving experience you want is another thing - the engines deliver power in entirely different ways and in most day to day applications the Windsor is a more responsive and sweeter drive.

Put a set of AFR 165 heads, a mild cam and good valve springs into a 220 (and a tune box with a custom tune by a good reputable tuner) and you'll see very reliable 200 rwkW all day every day.

[borry]

depends what you are after. The LS will make more power for same $$, the LS1's come with a T56 in manual guise which is a much stronger box then teh T-5.

$ v $ the LS will win hands down everytime. Argue as much as you want, its a newer engine, better design, and will beat a windsor time and tmie again for dollars spent.

but, I bought a windsor over an LS1. why ? not sure, past car purchase history, mates who have had windsors, not sure. The 5L falcons are cheaper then their 5.7L partners...

depends. two different beasts

[Jock260]

Thanks MGGT RAA, B2tf T3Man and Borry.

MGGT RAA and B2tf,

Exactly what i wanted to hear, thanks a lot fellas. love Both your threads on your Ute/Sedan and it's much nicer hearing info come from people who have been there/still are there, with Windsors.

T3Man,

Yeah i thought the yanks might have a few goodies that we could borrow. I Guess indestructable is the wrong word for an LS1, but when i was a bit younger, Dad brought home SS after SS and wasn't too light on the last one we bought, with full exhaust, OTR and Mafless Tune and 3.9's. All of them, especially the last one, stood up to things that i didn't think Dad knew how to do in a car, so i suppose I've warmed to them a little bit and can definitely testify to their strength.

Borry,

Yeah mate your not wrong about $ for $ with LS1 VS Windsor, but that's not quite what i'm after. I'm more inclined with your rationale as to why your went the Windsor over the LS1. My brother has a VY II SS with exactly the same mods as Dads car listen above, and although It's a monster, i just prefer Falcons and the way they sound, feel and look. Nothing sounds better than a Cast Iron V8, and I've wanted Dad to bring one home since the 220 motor came out, to no avail.

What about gearboxes boys? (T5). Can i show my brother how to do a propper burnout in an AUII with a T5 behind it? I know he might have me everyday in a straight line, but with some sway bars like mentioned above, and duel exhaust and a nice airbox and a tune, i might be able to have him in the twisty's ?

[Donny]

Pretty hard to compare the LS engines to the Windsors when ones a 5.7 litre or more vs a 5.0 litre (220kw). Your always on a better wicket torque wise with the Chev engine down to just the cubes alone.
The LS's are not pushing their limits in their current states of tune either, where as the 220kw Windsors are much closer to their limits without going to full gun parts. Thats another reason the LS is cheaper to work up and responds to mods so well.

Best news now is the cube strokers for the Windsors, now we get the best of both worlds, cubes for good torque with a very useable rev range.

So, engine wise.. Both have their merits. I still think the Windsors sound way better than any LS engines once pipes are done. But the LS engine does have that more scope to push it along more. Is the LS a heavy donk? If so, then you could end up with the nose heaviness of the later Boss Falcons, and thats annoying at times around the bends.
The Windsor 220's achillies heel will be the springs and rocker gear etc. The roller rockers are good, but some are starting to show signs of packing it in. Probly more prevalent on engines not well looked after, thrashed or modded to the limits.

Cars wise, Iv driven tunns of Commondogs, from VB right thru to VE, and theres just a feel to them that dosent feel right. I dunno what it is, but every one Iv driven is like that. (I used to work at a Holden dealership, so Iv driven hundreds of them) Then theres the brakes, which Falcons win hands down on.. I think the Falcon feels a better balanced car overall too. Better looking, more modern looking and a way nicer interiour too.

Gearbox wise, anything will break if abused. If you fed the power on the right way and had some mechanical sympathy towards your driving methods, then the T5 should take it. If not, theres a tun of pretty reasonably priced alternatives from Mal Woods etc that will virtually bolt straight in and be super tuff.

Just remember the early SLR Toranas and how fragile they were, and then how Peter Brock used to drive them in a way that they lasted. He was a racer, but he wasnt unsympathetic to his cars weaknesses and they broke way less than say Alan Grice, who was crazy on his stuff..

[robbyj]

Having no experience in either, id choose the windsor over the LS on the sound alone :p nothing beats the sound of a screaming windsor.

Either way you will be happy with your V8 im sure, but it sounds like youv already decided on a falcon, and just want that extra reassurance. Never heard of anyone regretting or hating their windsor, plus as mention above, it has been so refined and mastered over the years, it will be reliable

[b2tf]

Originally Posted by bobuleh

Never heard of anyone regretting or hating their windsor,

First time you try and change #5 plug with good headers fitted you'll come close

[5L]

the windors are a good engine, the 220 will give a standard gen 3 a good run.

ive driven mine fairly hard over the past 4 years, the gear box's dont like harsh treatment.

only other problem ive found is engine mounts, if snapped the bolts twice now.

[T3man]

Originally Posted by Jock260

Guess indestructable is the wrong word for an LS1, but when i was a bit younger, Dad brought home SS after SS and wasn't too light on the last one we bought, with full exhaust, OTR and Mafless Tune and 3.9's. All of them, especially the last one, stood up to things that i didn't think Dad knew how to do in a car, so i suppose I've warmed to them a little bit and can definitely testify to their strength.

Sounds like he didn't keep them very long - not long enough to break anything which is a very good thing LOL. Over extended periods of hard driving the Windsor will outlast the LS1 hands down. The LS1 is all alloy and therefore lighter; but that is also it's achilles heel - they wear at a faster rate especially when extended.

Originally Posted by Jock260

What about gearboxes boys? (T5). Can i show my brother how to do a propper burnout in an AUII with a T5 behind it? I know he might have me everyday in a straight line, but with some sway bars like mentioned above, and duel exhaust and a nice airbox and a tune, i might be able to have him in the twisty's ?

Why would you even bother trying to show your brother how to do a burnout? - if he wants to wreck his car that's his business - no reason to be a dunderhead and do the same to yours. If you want to show the true nature of the 220 against his SS just get him to the track. Seriously the Ford, even without engine mods, will outhandle and outbrake him all day every day. I have a mate with a VY Clubbie who KNOWS this! LOL

[Boza]

mate dunno where you got the idea ls1's are indestructible alot of them got replaced under warranty as they had major oil consumption issues from new also heard there is a flaw with the dipstick design and it catches on the crank and bye bye motor also early ls1 had engine knock problems dunno but i have heard alot of bad things on the ls1 and also theres no power below 3,000rpm.

[Windsor220]

Originally Posted by Jock260

. Can i get close to 200 RWKW with just bolt on's?

With a full exhaust and decent tune you should see close to 195rwkw. My old one got 194 and it was auto. I've seen a couple of others around that mark.

[b2tf]

Originally Posted by Windsor220

With a full exhaust and decent tune you should see close to 195rwkw. My old one got 194 and it was auto. I've seen a couple of others around that mark.

My ute is a manual 200 with a full exhaust and intake mods, I am thinking about using quarterhorse and I reckon it just might come close to 200 with a bit more work. Hoping it does.

[RAPID_BA]

which did you end up going?

[T3man]

He bought a Camry ...